Skill required in SnGs?

[Psy_Mike]

Greetings!

I at times here a lot of cashgamers claim that single-table tourneys are un-advanced poker. That it's simple thought and that there's nothing fancy to it.

I've never laid much attention to those statements since I personally feel that there IS a lot of skill involved with becoming a succesfull and winning 1-table tourney player.

However, reading about people who 8-table these games makes my beleif in this sort of go down the drain. With 8 tables running it's more or less impossible to keep a read on the tables and the game HAS to be very mechanic and ABC poker.

So my short questions are as follos:

* What is your stance about the "1-table SnGs are skilless" matter? Which requires more finess and skill, SnGs or CGs? Or is there little or no difference?

* Is it still possible to 8-table or even 4-table $215 SnGs? At what lvl do you need that read?

* Do you think you can make as much money doing one-table SnGs as with cashgames of the same lvl?

Thanks in advance!

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
* What is your stance about the "1-table SnGs are skilless" matter? Which requires more finess and skill, SnGs or CGs? Or is there little or no difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

ain't "skill-less" but often due to the structure, there are a bunch of skills that are predominantly out the window from cash games. there are however, a lot cash game skills that people seem to think they shouldn't move over to their sng play that should. there are also of course other skills that are worthless in cash game play that are very necessary for sng play.

[ QUOTE ]
* Is it still possible to 8-table or even 4-table $215 SnGs? At what lvl do you need that read?

[/ QUOTE ]

it's very possible. whether it's profitable is a player dependent thing

[ QUOTE ]
* Do you think you can make as much money doing one-table SnGs as with cashgames of the same lvl?

[/ QUOTE ]

if by "same level" you by definition mean "games at which you can make the same amount of money playing, then yes, clearly. this is all about how you define "same level though. other definitions for your question would seem to be stupid though, so the answer seems clear.

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Thanks in advance!

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no problem.

citanul

[tech]

[ QUOTE ]
I at times here a lot of cashgamers claim that single-table tourneys are un-advanced poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is probably because a lot of cash games players get their ass handed to them in SNGs when they do not adjust properly.

As for the ABC thing, I have yet to find a game/limit on PartyPoker where you cannot win by playing basic, fundamentally sound, relatively mechanical poker (aka ABC).

[lehighguy]

PP Tournament

Blinds: 200/400

Stacks-
Hero: 4500
Villian: 5500

Hero is dealt 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif in BB.

Villian raises to 1000. Hero ???.

[Psy_Mike]

tech, do you mean in CGs or SnGs? Or both perhaps?

About the "level" thing, I should have made myself more clear. Actually, now when I think about it it sounds rather odd what I was thinking, so I'll skip it for now /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[NYCNative]

A quarterback has skills.
A punter has skills.
Both play football.

Any questions?

[tech]

Both.

[eastbay]

If these cash game players think it takes no skill to win SnGs, why are they playing cash games and not cleaning up in the SnGs? For their health?

eastbay

[WebGuySteve]

There is certainly a lot of skill involved in SnG poker. However, like many of the posters have stated, they're very different skills than other forms of poker. I think the skills in SnGs are really just knowing the situation you're in, and when it's profitable to take a risk.

It certainly is possible to 4-table the $215ers profitably, that's what I do!

I think one can define "same level" as required bankroll to play said stakes. If this is the definition used then I believe more money can be made at the SnG games than cash games simply because there is less varience, so less of a bankroll is required.

[Voltron87]

I dunno, dragging the slider to all in 15 times a minute does get stressful...

[Big Limpin']

I'm not sure if its what you were thinking, but ultimaty, i think the question would be what is the expected profit from playing the same size bankroll in CG vs. SnG. I guess the RoR for 200BB and 30BI is prolly in the same ballpark (im willing to be corrected, thats just a guess).

I cant give an opinion on the matter, as i rarely play CGs.

On the subject of "skillz", you certainly abandon alot of the deepstack plays, or at least you have fewer opportunities to employ them correctly. Also, OP, you should differentiate between the 1500stack SnGs, and the 800/1000 stacks at Party, which play quite differently. 1500 being somewhat more akin to a CG, but most discussion on this board assumes Party structure.

But SnG have their own skill-set, with the biggest being situationaly dynamic . You will have to be competant at 10handed, 5handed, and heads up play. You will have low blind situations, where patience and selectivity are key. Mid-blinds stituations, where observance of stack sizes and harvesting blinds are key. And mega-high blind situations where if you dont have the intestinal fortitude to pin your ears back and play manicly, youre as good as broomcorn.

Ultimately, the money is made in SnGs in the bubble, where you need smarts AND balls. Quick math in yer head. Determining who is scared to call a p/f push, or is situatinally unwise to do so.

Preflop selection/aggression is the biggest "skill" in SnG poker.

Like i said before, its not "unskilled", its just a different skill-set.

[runner4life7]

If a CGer believes this he is stupid for one of two reasons. He is oblivious to the skill involved because if there was none everyone would be able to win and I would not be able to make more than the next guy essentially losing the rake in the long run. Secondly, if it is such a simple skill-less game, why are they not playing it? Is playinig poker not to make money? Comments like this just sound ignorant and probably those of one who couldnt beat them.

[Psy_Mike]

Ah thanks for all the replies, especially yours Big Limpin which gave the best definition of the skillof a SnG-player that I've read. Seems very many have a problem of putting it into words what you just did.

Also, I only play at 1500 stack SnGs (Betsson/PokerRoom, occasionaly Stars) since I found the 800s to be a tad too crazy!

By the way, is there any site that offers higher SnGs than the $215 ones?

Cheers again /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Greetings!

I at times here a lot of cashgamers claim that single-table tourneys are un-advanced poker. That it's simple thought and that there's nothing fancy to it.

I've never laid much attention to those statements since I personally feel that there IS a lot of skill involved with becoming a succesfull and winning 1-table tourney player.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, they're wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
HAS to be very mechanic and ABC poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the word 'disciplined' rather than mechanic. Both discipline and ABC poker require a great amount of skill. Not to mention Tournament Theory--which is an enormous part of SNG play, and requires a lot of skill to master.

[ QUOTE ]
* What is your stance about the "1-table SnGs are skilless" matter? Which requires more finess and skill, SnGs or CGs? Or is there little or no difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

Deep stack NLHE MTT's are the most complicated and skill important card game in the world. STT's, with the shallower stacks, add more of a luck factor. But, as in all matters of statistics and sample size, I believe that skill is shown (perhaps in equal amounts) as much in Party 1000 chip SNG's as cash games.

[ QUOTE ]
* Is it still possible to 8-table or even 4-table $215 SnGs? At what lvl do you need that read?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm certainly not there yet. But it's absolutely possible. See: Raptor, curtains, et al.

[ QUOTE ]
* Do you think you can make as much money doing one-table SnGs as with cashgames of the same lvl?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you can make an equivalent amount--if not more--AND reduce your variance.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
If these cash game players think it takes no skill to win SnGs, why are they playing cash games and not cleaning up in the SnGs? For their health?

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. This pretty much sums it up.

I've got a friend who can't stand NL because he 'always gets sucked out on.' So he plays a lot of LIMIT cash games.

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
Ah thanks for all the replies, especially yours Big Limpin which gave the best definition of the skillof a SnG-player that I've read. Seems very many have a problem of putting it into words what you just did.

Also, I only play at 1500 stack SnGs (Betsson/PokerRoom, occasionaly Stars) since I found the 800s to be a tad too crazy!

By the way, is there any site that offers higher SnGs than the $215 ones?

Cheers again /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/blush.gif(blushes) /images/graemlins/blush.gif

hey thanks. dude, you will be interested to know that i was born and rasied at Pokerroom.com. I was playing there since back in the day when they didnt even offer NL SnG, only limit, that was like 2 years ago at least. My those were the days, im kinda getting teary eyes here. Must be like skipperbob reminiscing about the glory days of 5-card draw /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Poekerroom was very good to me over the years, not just in a financial sense (>$150k over 3 years, mostly @ $33s), but just playing (and learning from) the 1500 structure. As you know, but others may not, pokerroom blinds increase per 10 hands a la Party, so that the endgame is a tad more frenetic.

But in the last month or so, i've gotten totally into Party. Not cause i like 800/1000 games, but just cause the players there are horrid relative to PR.com at a given level. Check out a post i made today "Party = Crack" for more on that.

Um, where was i going with this? Oh, right, okay, i'd totally reccommend PR.com for anyone that is a cashgame player wanting to get into SnG, cause the stacks are deep enough, but you get a taste of the rapid blinds escalation that comes with Party.

Also, Psy_Mike, i'll shill "BetOnBet.com" as your PR.com skin of choice. They give rakeback, which others dont. They advertise @ 40% rakeback (!) but that works on a sliding scale, to get 40% youd need to play over 7k a month in vig, but you can get 30% if you clear 400/month. [/shill]

As for >$215 SnG, all i know of is the Party Steps, where you can find 400s, 1000s, even 15000s.

Where, i imagine, you need all kinds of "skillz" , no matter what genre /images/graemlins/grin.gif

BL - Limpin' aint easy

[Moonsugar]

1) Successful SnGers are not skilless, obviously. But I do believe that SnG strategy is simpler and contains fewer variables than ring game play.

2) Yes it is possible to 8 table 215s profitably. I haven't done it but some have.

3) I think one could probably make more money in cash games than SnGs. But I am not 100% on this as I don't know the win rates at the really high SnGs.

[Big Limpin']

4) also, in is well known that SnGers get all the fine ladiez. Cash gamers go home with 220lb swamp donkeys.