Making a real bet

[microbet]

I pretty much never lead out on the flop with less than 1/2 pot (usually more). Do you? If so, when?

[I don't always lead out, of course.]

[Moonsugar]

Only if I have less than 1/2 the pot left in my stack.

I HATE the nusiance bets/raises that are really checks.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Only if I have less than 1/2 the pot left in my stack.

I HATE the nusiance bets/raises that are really checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

why do you hate them? is it because you're forced to fold to them a lot?

yes, i do make smaller than 1/2 pot bets many times. the situations i do so in would take a long time to list/explain. but it all makes sense.

one line about it would be that if you frequently bet smallish with your good hands you can bluff more cheaply too.

citanul

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
one line about it would be that if you frequently bet smallish with your good hands you can bluff more cheaply too.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that pays off in a single SNG or is based on facing the same players often?

[citanul]

Clearly the effects are even better if you play a slower structure and/or playing against a small player pool, but I think that if you use the small bet in proper spots, the effect is positive on a play by play basis.

Particularly if you under bet a decent spectrum of hands: pure bluffs, monsters, and a few just plain old decent hands, (and a bunch of situational spots where it is probably the correct play,) you'll often:

a) pick up small pots with pure bluffs
b) pick up huge pots when people think that your small bet with a monster is just you "checking" and decide to push you off your hand
c) (i'm not a huge fan of this one really but whatever) build monster pots in multiway situations with monster draws.

citanul

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
a) pick up small pots with pure bluffs

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll do this if I'm HU on the flop against someone who has a fairly short stack and I think that even against a small bet they will have to fold or commit their stack.

[citanul]

well yes, the idea in that spot of "threatening someone's whole stack while only committing a small chunk of yours" is one of the many spots where this pays off.

citanul

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
why do you hate them? is it because you're forced to fold to them a lot?

[/ QUOTE ]I think the OP is referring to the strange thing I see in the #11s all the time. A raised pot pre-flop at the 30/60 level with two callers has about t500 in it. Flop comes out and UTG... bets the $60 minimum.

Calling it a "nuisance bet" is the best way to describe it. They're a pain in the ass. As long as you've got something to draw to, you have to call it. But you feel dirty when you do. Maybe it prevents someone from raising you or making a larger bet when you check, but I don't think the people at these levels are that savy.

[microbet]

Thanks for your responses to a vague post. There was another post this morning where someone made a 1/4 pot bet and I didn't want to semi-hijack that thread.

[adanthar]

Hmm, that's an interesting difference.

Aside from some blind hands (open complete, flop middle pair, etc.) and some specific situations that don't often come up, I don't think I ever bet less than 2/3 on the flop.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
I pretty much never lead out on the flop with less than 1/2 pot (usually more). Do you? If so, when?

[I don't always lead out, of course.]

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I will occasionally. It's when I'm bluffing a smaller stack or setting a trap by showing weakness. Often, you flop a big hand when you were the preflop aggressor. Checking some of these flops looks far too suspicious, so I'll lead out a 1/3 pot bet or something, hoping that it shows weakness.

EDIT--Just read Citanul's posts in this thread. I'm advocating the same thing.

[microbet]

Not a big diff with me. I've been betting 1/2 pot on the flop when I want to show weakness with a bet.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm, that's an interesting difference.

Aside from some blind hands (open complete, flop middle pair, etc.) and some specific situations that don't often come up, I don't think I ever bet less than 2/3 on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try betting 1/2 pot OOP against one opponent on an Axx board with AK after raising PF. Call the push. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[adanthar]

That's one of those times /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Matt R.]

I'll do it in quite a few situations. Usually they come up when the stacks are shallow, the pot is big, and I want action. My favorite time to bet less than 1/2 the pot (regardless of stack depth), is when I flop a hand like a set in a multi-way pot with no obvious draws. It's indistinguishable from a probe bet to see where you're at, and you'll frequently get mutiple-callers or, better yet, a raise.

[Freudian]

I sometimes do it when I am up against a poor player. He must have called my preflop raise level 4+ and I flop really well. So basically it is an invitation to move in on me.

[Moonsugar]

Yes, this is what I am referring to.

[Moonsugar]

I am odd I guess. When I want to show weakness I check. When I bet 1/2 the pot the message is: I am cool with giving you 3:1 to continue.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
I am odd I guess. When I want to show weakness I check. When I bet 1/2 the pot the message is: I am cool with giving you 3:1 to continue.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are certain flops where checking looks far too suspicious. It depends on stack sizes, pot size, and the situation, but there are often times where it's clear that you should making a continuation or value bet. Checking looks too suspicious to many players, and on the average you might get less action checking than simply betting.

[Moonsugar]

I understand. In that case I bet 1/2 the pot.

I have never tried the strategy of making small bets for 2 main reasons:

1) I don't like giving good odds to my opponents
2) I want to be feared (intimidating)

While the strategy of making small bets might help in the begining of the tourney I think having an aggressive image gives you more folding equity later when the blinds are big.

I could be convinced that citanul's strategy has merit, but as of now I am unconvinced.

[NYCNative]

Except we're NOT talking about 1/2 pot size bets. Or even 1/4 pot size bets. We're talking about donks putting minimum bets into pots on the flop, turn and even river of previously raised pots.

I'm playing a UB $11 SNG now. I'll bet I can see someone do it in the next few minutes... Yep! Like clockwork:

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
UTG+2 (t1500)
Hero (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1425)
CO (t1380)
Button (t1690)
SB (t1505)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t20, UTG+2 calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t120) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t50</font>, UTG+1 calls t50, UTG+2 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, SB folds.

Turn: (t220) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t20</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t40</font>, BB calls t20...

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
While the strategy of making small bets might help in the begining of the tourney

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not talking about the 'beginning' of a tourney.