When do you fold this?

[durron597]

I feel like I should have folded a bit earlier than I did.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t2365)
MP1 (t3430)
MP2 (t1350)
MP3 (t1220)
CO (t1285)
Button (t700)
SB (t660)
BB (t1270)
UTG (t1220)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t30, MP1 calls t30, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (t135) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t100</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t200</font>, Button folds, BB calls t200, Hero calls t100.

Turn: (t735) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t90</font>, BB calls t90, Hero calls t90.

River: (t1005) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t510</font>, Hero folds, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: t1515

[jgunnip]

I run into the same situations at Stars a lot. You initially play middle pairs for set value but when you flop the over pair you feel like you should try and defend since you have enough chips. Lately I've just been checking these flops and won't play unless I sense weakness from my opponents.

[Unarmed]

Checking the flop makes this hand much easier to play.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Checking the flop makes this hand much easier to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, what is your plan if MP1 or Button bets? Somehow I don't like checking and calling a 2flush board in an unraised pot, and I feel like c/ring is worse. So should I just check-fold?

What is your plan for the later streets after a flop check?

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Checking the flop makes this hand much easier to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, what is your plan if MP1 or Button bets? Somehow I don't like checking and calling a 2flush board in an unraised pot, and I feel like c/ring is worse. So should I just check-fold?

What is your plan for the later streets after a flop check?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm checking because I have no idea what anybody has, and I'd like someone else to weed out the 5 for me. Ideally I want to see a bet and a raise so I can safely muck my hand. If there's no raise it depends on the action, but if someone makes a real bet and BB calls I'm generally folding.

PS: betting to protect your hand against a draw when you already may be smashed is generally a bad idea. In this case you also allow a draw to force you out on a semi-bluff raise. (not to mention A7)

PPS: there is approximately a 0% chance I'm C/Ring this flop.

PPPS: if its checked around I'm pretty sure everyone but BB has whiffed, as their odds of sucessfully C/Ring someone decrease as there's less and less people to act. Therefore, it becomes very important for the lock hand (the 5) to bet. If BB checks a blank turn I now am positive I have the best hand and can safely bet to charge two hearts.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Checking the flop makes this hand much easier to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, what is your plan if MP1 or Button bets? Somehow I don't like checking and calling a 2flush board in an unraised pot, and I feel like c/ring is worse. So should I just check-fold?

What is your plan for the later streets after a flop check?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm checking because I have no idea what anybody has, and I'd like someone else to weed out the 5 for me. Ideally I want to see a bet and a raise so I can safely muck my hand. If there's no raise it depends on the action, but if someone makes a real bet and BB calls I'm generally folding.

PS: betting to protect your hand against a draw when you already may be smashed is generally a bad idea. In this case you also allow a draw to force you out on a semi-bluff raise. (not to mention A7)

PPS: there is approximately a 0% chance I'm C/Ring this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. So if I check and MP1 bets 100 and the BB calls, do you fold or call? And I guess if you call you check-fold when the second 7 hits the turn, even for a bet as small as 90 chips (which is easier since the pot is smaller).

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
When do you fold this?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t135) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero bets t100, MP1 raises to t200, Button folds, <font color="red">BB calls t200</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

[adanthar]

For the record, I like the flop bet, and if BB had folded and the turn was, say, a 2 of spades, I'd be checkraising MP2's tiny bet all day. With a 7 hitting I believe I'd fold.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When do you fold this?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t135) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero bets t100, MP1 raises to t200, Button folds, <font color="red">BB calls t200</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm getting 6.35:1 to call that bet. So would it be correct assume you think that means that in a low stakes game I have the worst hand 85% of the time?

[adanthar]

You are getting 6.35 to 1 if, and only if, you will never put any additional chips into the pot to show down your hand.

When the BB coldcalls, what do you think the chances of that are?

[Unarmed]

Yes, I would have folded to that action. Sigh, the turn is just retarded. I'd call, because there is a slight chance BB is on a heart draw and idiot boy has A7. You should have turbo mucked the flop through when A7 guy's raise was smooth called by the BB.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
You are getting 6.35 to 1 if, and only if, you will never put any additional chips into the pot to show down your hand.

When the BB coldcalls, what do you think the chances of that are?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have just given me a serious revelation as to my understanding of pot odds. This is a very good point, I need to start thinking in these terms and stop bleeding off chips when "getting good odds".

Edit: I suppose this is what Sklansky &amp; Harrington refer to as "reverse implied odds" - a concept I didn't really understand until now. I'm going to go reread those sections in HoH and ToP.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When do you fold this?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t135) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero bets t100, MP1 raises to t200, Button folds, <font color="red">BB calls t200</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

^^

BB is screaming--I have a 5!

BB probably could have won a bigger pot had he/she bet the flop, too.