What makes a good 4th and 5th street player?

[StLouisMike]

It seems to be that most losing players aren't good post flop players. They have trouble when the the scare cards come on the later rounds and even more when they come in with a reraise from their opponents. My question is what skills make a good post flop player? What can a player do to find themselves in alot of murky situations on the turn or river? I would assume that hand reading, position, and effectively reading the board (ex. You: AQo Board: Qd Td 9s, would be considered a marginal hand due to the diamond and connected board Vs You: AQ Board: Qd 6s 2c is a strong hand due to no flush or str8 draws likely) are paramount to bieng a good player in later rounds. Thanks for the replies in advance.

Mike

[BZ_Zorro]

Once the basics are there, it's close observation of hands you're not involved in, combined with helpful player notes. I think correct decisions depends a great deal on who you're playing.

[rikz]

My guess is that live, it is all about reads and tells. Can you mislead your opponent with conflicting signals in your betting or body language in the context of the flop cards? Can you accurately read your opponents betting patterns and body language based on your experience playing with that player? For example, what kind of hand did villain have half an hour ago when you saw him check-raise in a situation like the one you're in now? What did he look like when he checked that hand versus when he checks/folds?

Unfortunately, my live play was pretty one-dimensional before I started playing more on line to track my stats and improve my game. I tended to play tight, and play my cards. At some point, I plan to go back to live games and really work on trying to read body language and tells that I've read about in books like Caro's.

Online, especially multitabling, I think post flop play is reading flop texture relative to notes you have on the villain you are playing with. The more notes, the better. Have you seen him go all in with a missed flush draw on the river before? Has he ONLY re-raised preflop with AA or KK? Does he raise with any big A, like AJ, and auto-bet every flop, even when he misses? Etc.

I only have limited notes and poker tracker with auto-ratings, but that helps a lot. I suspect Game Time would help more.

Finally, both live and online involve some math. I suspect the reads are more important than the math, but rapidly calculating pot odds is important to correct post-flop play. While playing on line, I even have a small print out of an excel spreadsheet I printed with the odds for making outs with 2 cards to go from the flop, with one card on the turn, and one card on the river. I really should memorize them...

[StLouisMike]

I agree that your opponents are the biggest factor in your decision making. I'm sure everyone would like to play against the a typical guy who makes each check, bet, raise for a certain reason but, it seems that at the low stakes and extrememly high stakes your opponents are very unpredictable in the sense that they frequently will make a bet/raise with no idea of what you are holding. I tried out the Miller short stack strategy and found that hands that I probably would have folded to pressure on the later rounds held up against my opponents dismal holdings. For example we will make a situation so I could pick your mind here.
In early position with KK and raise the blinds say 4x and get two callers in late position. The board comes Q59 with two diamonds. There is $27 in the pot and we bet $25 with one caller. There is now $77 in the pot and an Ace hits the turn and we bet $50 but, our opponent who is a typical loose internet player reraises it to $100. What do you do? 55, 99, QQ, Ax, 95, Q5 all have you crippled but, we can most likely get rid of Q5 and 95. Would you opponent really call your pot sized bet on the flop with just Ace high? See the dilemma?

[sourbeaver]

A very important, yet basic skill, is to understand how to put the hard decisions on your opponents and keep the easier ones for yourself (bindless poker). Basically, bindless poker implies that you already know what action you are going to take after the one you are taking right now.

example: when you raise, you should already know or have a pretty good idea of what you're going to do if you get reraised. This way, you keep your decisions easier, not putting a lot of pressure on yourself when the reraise does come and you're not expecting it. This, of course, does not only apply to a reraise situation, but to every move you might make in a given hand.

This will also help put the harder decisions in your opponent's hands most of the time, since you won't risk second guessing yourself the whole way.

I know this tip doesn't tell you what actions to take, but it's definitely a great skill to acquire once you do know what actions to take. Because making one right decision equates to nothing if it's followed by a bad decision.

[tripdad]

you've gotten some terrific replies here. i will add one thing i didn't see: fearlessness.

make your read, and make your bet. if your opponent tells you that you screwed up, get out of the hand.

cheers!

[StLouisMike]

Sounds good. See this is why A) I need to read PL/NL Poker and B) We really need more articles/books that teach you more than just "Play AK this way" kind of books. Up until just recently I have been playing NL basically like a PL game. I make my standard raise preflop then if I continue my bets are pretty much in a range of 1/2 to the full amount of the pot. I would always try to play small pots and never push more than the size of the pot. Ive never really pressured people with unreasonable raises and vary rarely reraised and certainly not with marginal hands even when I thought they were good. Seems like the guy that wins at NL is the one who gets people to play big pots when they have the great hands.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like the guy that wins at NL is the one who gets people to play big pots when they have the great hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or when their opponent doesnt !!

[winky51]

Good stuff here. Tells, notes, betting patterns, and how players see you is very important. I find that being aggressive and fearless prevents other players from trying to push you around with bluffs. I always try not to make weak bets into my opponent unless I want them to think I am weak. Make the draws pay the price by betting enough so they do not have odds. You don't have to OVERbet the pot and make them fold most of the time, you want value for your hand. You actually want them to call incorrectly so when they miss the turn you really put the pressure.

When bluffing have balls. Place that big bet in. I win a good percentage of my hands on semi bluffs or pure bluffs online.

[stu-unger]

i think u guys hit the nail on the head already but my 2 cents go like this. be aggressive at all times, i mean dont over play hands but make your opponents make decisions. think out your line on the flop and stick to your gut. and always KISS (keep it simple stupid)if u r always pushing youll win a lot of pots out right and those big pots u want will come when u have big hands because everyone will always see u pounding away.

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
When bluffing have balls. Place that big bet in. I win a good percentage of my hands on semi bluffs or pure bluffs online.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm, I'm guessing you dont play much SSNL online then?

KoW

[sourbeaver]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When bluffing have balls. Place that big bet in. I win a good percentage of my hands on semi bluffs or pure bluffs online.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm, I'm guessing you dont play much SSNL online then?

KoW

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts exactly /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[theredpill5]

Another key to playing well postflop is to know your opponents as well as you can. I know with multi-tabling it is hard to know all of your opponents. I try the best I can, though. I usually am typing in notes quite constantly while playing. Usually, it is , he raised on the flop with this when flop was this....

Or he raised $1 with this...... but he raised to 50 cents with this....

If you know your opponent raises $1 with he has AA and 50 cents when he has AK, just think how easy your postflop plays will be when you get in a hand with him. I also write down the people who bet their sets and people who slowplay them. It also helps to be able to type 60 words/minute.

[StLouisMike]

So in a way the Super System NL Holdem section does have some truth to it? lol. Honestly the people I see who succeed at the sites I play at are the ones who seem to be reraising quite regularly, rarely have to show a hand, and once they do show one its for all someones money and they have the best hand. I realize that today is only one day but, I have been playing short handed today and have been doing very well. I have been limping in most pots from late position and even with some of my normal raising hands from early postion (ex A8s). I reraised more frequently especially when it seemed like someone was weak or I was in position and made a large bet that they couldnt call with just a marginal hand. The aggressor style seemed to work even though I lost two all in preflops with KK to AA within 15 minutes but, I bought back in and got more than just my money back. Thanks for the replies.

Mike

[kevin017]

IMO there are a couple relatively simple rules to follow to help guide your post-flop.

-generally, if you're getting reraised on the turn/river, you should have a set or better. reraises (especially if more than a minraise) usually mean business.

-generally, be disliking the turn or river without a set or better. TPTK just doesn't look so great with 5 cards out. This basically means you're looking to wrap this hand up by the turn if its not too strong.

-Limp 22-JJ preflop. raise EVERYTHING else you play, and continuation bet it on the flop if you miss.

-6-max is all about aggression, about 75% of situations are raise or fold.

[winky51]

I dont know what a SSNL is but I play online and live. When I mean by a lot is more than 10% of my hands. They succeed many more times then not. So its +EV for me when I bluff. I keep track of it so I know. You CANT bluff at $25. at $100 NL you can. But I never overbet pots. I always place the sneaky bet bluff in. You overbet people get suspicious. You make your standard "I want you to call my made draw" bet then they fold. Whenever I hit a draw I take sometime to think about how much the opponent will call. Also when I bluff in such a situation its the same.

But most bluffs are draws on the board that I feel no one else hit 34s in the BB with a 956 board with 2 players. I will bet this.

Or 773 board and I got an ace. I bet this.

Or 773 board and I got 3Ks in the SB or BB, I bet this. Mathematically the chance the other callers have a 7 is small. so I bet.

But board comes K33 I dont bluff, much more likely someone limped in with Kx then 7x.

Also I dont bet into board that I see draws on with face cards. If I am bluffing and even if they have a gut straight they are still the favorite to win. Like KT5 board. Well they might have J9 and will call to the gut. So my pair 54s is losing. Any J, 9, K, T will kill me and since they are calling the flop I don't know what they have. I just make intelligent bluffs thats all. Not blatent stupid ones I catch people making all the time. I check a good deal on the river so I can let others bluff. They try about 1 in 5 times to bluff at the pot with some non-thought redicuolous overbet, I call and they are busted.

[winky51]

Hmmm I tried 6 max and full table. I must say I am more aggressive there. I dont find it any harder.

Do you make more on the SH tables?

The blinds come faster but I am guessing you play more hands.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO there are a couple relatively simple rules to follow to help guide your post-flop.

-generally, if you're getting reraised on the turn/river, you should have a set or better. reraises (especially if more than a minraise) usually mean business.

-generally, be disliking the turn or river without a set or better. TPTK just doesn't look so great with 5 cards out. This basically means you're looking to wrap this hand up by the turn if its not too strong.

-Limp 22-JJ preflop. raise EVERYTHING else you play, and continuation bet it on the flop if you miss.

-6-max is all about aggression, about 75% of situations are raise or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO a lot of this is wrong (esp. the 75% raise or fold part). i'm not going to get into it because it's too big a discussion for this thread, so just think of this as my .02.