Newbie's should start with HEFAP

[Jacob_Gilliam]

This was the first poker book I ever read, and I learned a lot more from this than SSHE. The problem I have with SSHE is that it's strategy is very formulaic (if you have these cards, you should do this, etc.) While HEFAP shows you how to make the correct decision based on individual situations, and assumes that with practice you'll learn to apply these concepts to all different types of situations.
The only thing that I think is really good about SSHE is the preflop charts, but then again you learn how to play preflop intuitavely through HEFAP, instead of always doing the exact same thing regardless of the game. Poker is not a game of charts, it's a game of figuring out the best move for that specific situation, which may not be exactly repeated for thousands of hands. HEFAP teaches you to think more about why your doing what you are doing, and I think just about any newbie would do better by starting with this book over any other, including SSHE.

[ArturiusX]

I only just read HEFAP, and I love it. Its one of those 'thinking books'. SSHE turns you into a machine, but HEFAP makes you very aware of how you should approach different kinds of players, both thinking and loose players.

Basing your play around SSHE, then extracting certain concepts from HEFAP (like shorthanded play and heads up) would make you a god on the poker table.

[@bsolute_luck]

i've just started reading HEFAP, but no i don't think a newbie would do better starting with this and, from what i can tell so far, HEFAP is also basing it's play on thinking opponents at higher limits.

SSH is used for low-limit, donk-betting goofs who don't pay attention, play anything, and are more in it for "fun".

HEFAP seems to give some credit to your opponents. plus a newbie won't fully understand HEFAP without first grasping the basics: SSH and TOP.

[aron]

I started with HEPFAP, read it twice.
And played break-even poker (it seems like in retrospect).
This was at the same time I played my first couple of hundred hands single-tabling.

Later on I got hold of SSH, and felt that it was a book with information possible to absorb.
This christmas I re-read HEPFAP and felt that I actually understood a bit of what the hell was written there.

My advice would be that unless you've played poker a lot or are way above average intelligent SSH is a much safer bet to start with, cause HEPFAP is a advanced book.

And after that I totally recommend to give HEPFAP a try after reading TOP as well.

-aron

[iNsChris]

Read HEFAP before SSH was quite alot to take in, fairly confusing.

SSH is great book now i'm currently reading it, I'm sure ill understand HEFAP better once Finished(read/understood) SSH.

2+2 books certainly superior to others i've read /images/graemlins/smile.gif Good job 2+2.

[apples]

I think if you try to apply concepts in HPFAP without understanding SSHE you are building on a very shaky foundation.

[btspider]

i strongly disagree.

[unimproved]

I don't think this is good advice. If a 'newbie' goes to .5/1 armed with the info from HPFAP only, he's going to be playing a game that'll go way over the heads of the vast majority of his opponents. Frequently checking strong hands OOP on the turn for example is a good way of throwing money away in the micros.

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing that I think is really good about SSHE is the preflop charts

[/ QUOTE ]

I could not disagree more strongly with this.

[Ringo_Mojo]

Yes i think SSH does teach a formulaic approach to poker, but thats what works in the low stakes games that its aimed at beating, and its the easiest way for a new player to get rolling in the game.

HEPFAP has its place, as does TOP (which if you havn't read you should), but I think that SSH is a better place to get started.

[JKDStudent]

I strongly disagree. The first book I read was SSH and I digested it pretty well on the first reading, and have went through it a few times since. Yes, it's very formulaic. It's pretty much an instruction manual. But that's ok to start out with. New players need to get comfortable and see a lot of different situations.

HEFAP is very advanced. I am a pretty intelligent guy and very well read, but this book still overwhelms me at times. But aside from that, there are two other reasons that this is not the ideal starting point. First, at the lower levels, the concepts in HEFAP are simply too sophisticated. They will be wasted at lower levels. Secondly, as I said already, it's better to expose new players to a lot of situations to get them comfortable. Once they're on auto-pilot to an extent, HEFAP will better enable them to understand why they've been doing what they've been doing and to make adjustments accordingly.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
i strongly disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

its for playing against Advanced Players ... less than 5% of the players at the micro level fit that category

to be the micro level its best to play machine since thats what gets the money, boring standard ABC poker

[Jakesta]

You can use SSH against advanced players at the micros too, because the tables are loose enough.

[cold_cash]

Relatively speaking, I found the pre-flop charts to be the least enlightening/informative sections of the book.

I also doubt that was an accident on the part of the authors.

I've read both SSH and HEPFAP a number of times, and for the games and opponents I play SSH is by far more applicable.

Having said that, I don't think either book is best for a complete noob.

[imported_exelius]

Ok, I'm glad I saw this thread. I'm fairly new. I play the .5/1 have about 500 hands so far ( that ive put into PT, which I bought too). I've played alot more of course but have no record.

I actually started out with HEPFAP, then heard that holdem poker by sklansky helps to understand the former. So, I read that one. I have to admit HEPFAP is a hard read.

I currently have 7.55BB/100 under player summary atm ( i know its unsustainable but at least Im winning atm) and I assume I'm telling the right figure, its under player summary on the general tab, is that the right one everybody quotes?

So, I havent finished reading HEPFAP yet, thats why I read the smaller one first, should I stop now and cut it off and go get SSH? Because I dont want to trap myself into a way I think is good when its really not. I'm concerned now, after I read this thread lol.

Thanks,

Ex

[vulturesrow]

Quite frankly, this is bad advice. Getting Started in Hold'em or maybe Winning Low Limit Hold'em should be first. HEPFAP is way too much for starting out in low limit hold'em. SSH after you are completely comfortable playing.

Also saying SSH is a forumlaic book is incorrect too. People who approach it as such are the ones that get into trouble with their game after reading it. There is a lot of decision making to do playing that style of game.

[cold_cash]

I haven't read it, but if I were just starting out again my first book would be Getting Started in Hold Em.

I think you need a solid foundation before you can fully understand and apply many of the concepts in the other books.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
i strongly disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

[imported_exelius]

To add to my post, Holdem poker by Sklansky is a beginner book, but I am completely comfortable with playing and feel I'm ready for the next step. So, thats why I'm concerned about the path to go HEPFAP or SSH

Thanks,
Ex

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
To add to my post, Holdem poker by Sklansky is a beginner book, but I am completely comfortable with playing and feel I'm ready for the next step. So, thats why I'm concerned about the path to go HEPFAP or SSH

Thanks,
Ex

[/ QUOTE ]

SSH

[mmbt0ne]

It sounds like either you or the people you are referencing are not applying SSHE correctly.

That said, anyone who has never studied poker should read books in this order: WLLH, TOP, SSHE, HEPFAP.

[Roybert]

I have read GSIH, and it is absolutely excellent for beginners. Unless you have played a lot in the past, I firmly believe that this is easily the best place to start learning the right way to play. And, although SSHE is very well written and accessible, GSIH makes it even easier to read.

[imported_exelius]

I think I have a good grasp on the beginning aspects, but what is GSIH book?

Thanks,
Ex

[Roybert]

GSIH = "Getting Started in Hold 'Em". It's Ed Miller's new book for beginners. I found it very helpful in getting a much deeper knowledge of SSHE's tougher concepts.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

This is the correct strategy. HEPFAP can add a lot to the game that SSHE teaches you, but you really need a lot of time at the tables and this forum to figure out what in HEPFAP applies to which situation.

[imported_exelius]

Ah,
Ok I know which one now. I really think I'm probably ready for SSH so Im gonna pick that one up now, I think

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is good advice. If a 'newbie' goes to .5/1 armed with the info from HPFAP only, he's going to be playing a game that'll go way over the heads of the vast majority of his opponents. Frequently checking strong hands OOP on the turn for example is a good way of throwing money away in the micros.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to say pretty much the same thing. I have gotten a couple useful things out of HEFAP, but if you check 60% of your made hands on the turn OOP at the passive Micro tables, you're committing suicide. That play needs to be reserved for when you have a sponge on your left.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing that I think is really good about SSHE is the preflop charts...

[/ QUOTE ]

You know that Ed didn't really put much thought into his preflop charts relative to the rest of the book, right?
Ed's own words. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1325891&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)

The preflop charts there are basically on par with almost any other decent preflop chart.

[ QUOTE ]
but then again you learn how to play preflop intuitavely through HEFAP

[/ QUOTE ]

You must have some amazing intuition.

[ QUOTE ]
HEFAP teaches you to think more about why your doing what you are doing, and I think just about any newbie would do better by starting with this book over any other, including SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're reading it that way, you're missing out on tons of content. Go search the archives for "waiting until the turn" and "protecting your hand" and you'll find all sorts of posts about people who are completely lost. If it were *just* an ABC book, everyone should be getting these things right. Since they are not, SSH is more than an ABC book.

[Jacob_Gilliam]

Since everybody has pretty much disagreed with me, i'd like to make a couple more points. First, while SSHE does cover topics such as protecting your hand, they are covered in more detail and with better analysis in HEFAP. Second, while all the ideas in HEFAP are not applicable to all games, if you understand what is being written you should know which strategies to avoid given the current game. HEFAP is fairly advanced, but not too much so. As I said, this was the first book I used and the only book that I had read during my first few months of play, and I had never played poker before in my life. Though I myself am a relative newbie to poker, I have played chess all my life. In chess, one learns that you must view the game as a whole, rather than as individual moves. You think in terms of what your going to accomplish three moves down the road, not just right now. This is why I prefer HEFAP. When the flop comes, i'm already thinking about how i'm going to play the turn and river, not just what is the correct call for that instant. There are sections, such as hand reading, which are almost impossible to use in micro games, I agree, but if one seriously studies HEFAP I think they would come away a far better poker player than those who started with SSHE.

[btspider]

the books are not mutually exclusive. no one is putting down HEPFAP. its a harder read, plain and simple. that's not what's usually best for new players.. especially casual players who are not necessarily going to devote significant time to studying poker.

[Jacob_Gilliam]

I'm not saying that SSHE is a terrible book. What I am saying is that after some practice, you will be able to better choose which strategy is corect for your game by reading HEFAP, and when you do get into a game with better players, you won't have to scrap a large part of your repitoire as you would if you started with SSHE, because ABC poker will get you killed as you move up, which we are all trying to do.

[MDO67]

I think newbies (like me) should read both. They are both excellent. I started with HEFAP and realized I had a ton more to learn. SSH has been a Godsend and I look forward to re-reading HEFAP now that I might understand it.

-Mark

[unimproved]

[ QUOTE ]
ABC poker will get you killed as you move up

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, again. Unless you're planning to hit up 30/60 or higher any time soon.

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ABC poker will get you killed as you move up

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, again. Unless you're planning to hit up 30/60 or higher any time soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something that probably needs to be expanded on. I think a lot of micros players are under the assumption that the laws of probability and good solid poker play disappear when you hit the magical $5/$10 mark, and that you will be somehow expected to suddenly develop psychic abilities to beat these new opponents.

I haven't gotten anywhere near the point where strict ABC poker stops working, but I'm quite certain that ABC will always be a VERY big part of the game, no matter what level you are playing. The adjustments against extremely knowledgeable players are probably a matter of nuance and multi-level thinking, more than throwing out pot odds and value betting. At the end of the day, the game will always be about getting your money in when you have the best of it.

Both of these books are crucial in understanding how to do that against the variety of table styles that we will encounter at ALL limits of the game.

[Jacob_Gilliam]

I'm not saying that you just throw pot odds and the such out the window. As you move up, you'll need to add more layers to your game, and it's better to learn that from the start, rather than an extremely formulaic approach. Also, i'm betting that someone who was truely skilled at the game would make more from HEFAP and applying the more advanced skills correctly for the given game than someone who just route follows SSHE, which takes time to learn (abc poker) but much less skill.

[vulturesrow]

David and Mason have both said that HEPFAP is not optimal for low limit games. Even their "loose games" section isnt the optimal strategy for what the typical low limit game is these days. Now, you are correct, if you read just HEPFAP and were able to actually understand and apply the ideas, you would still be a winning player. But I guarantee you that you would be leaving money on the table.

The first hold'em book I ever read was HEPFAP. Obviously, it went right over my head. It was like reading a foreign language to be quiet honest with you. Then I got WLLH and thats what helped me build a substantial part of my initial micro bankroll. Then I started reading 2+2 and getting advice from the players here, which helped exorcise the weak-tight WLLH demons from my game. Then SSHE came out and I had no trouble understanding what Ed was talking about. During all this I would read little bits of HEPFAP. Thats where I am coming from

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that you just throw pot odds and the such out the window.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't mean to imply that you were saying this, I was bringing it up as a relavent part of the discussion as a whole.

I have to disagree with you that SSH is meant ot be followed as a rote method of learning ABC poker. The book provides a conceptual framework, which can be viewed as a step by step process at first glance, but which really encompasses a deeper way of looking at the game than that.

I don't mean to sound like I'm blindly drinking the Kool Aid here, but I do think you're oversimplifying a fantastic learning tool.

[ClaytonN]

I started by reading HEPFAP.

I strongly recommend that people do NOT start out by reading this book. You have to have mastered the concepts present in SSHE to get a grasp of what's in HEPFAP. Otherwise the book context seems incredibly dry and it flies over your head.

Start out by reading "The Theory of Poker"
Then read SSHE
Then play a lot
Then read HEPFAP
Then play a lot

[unimproved]

It doesn't work like that. You're saying HPFAP is more advanced, so skip SSH and just learn that from the get go. Saves time, right? The thing is, if you play nano, micro or small stakes games with only HPFAP booksmarts and nothing else you're going to lack some of the skills needed to crush those games. Sklansky and Malmuth have said as much and this is the reason why SSH was written. Besides this, if you truly are a 'newbie' with little or no experience, HPFAP will probably make as much immediate sense to you as an instructional text on orienteering written in Latin. I also disagree completely, yet again, with the idea that SSH teaches you to play by rote. Both SSH and HPFAP offer, as UncleSalty said, conceptual frameworks that apply to different sets of game conditions, namely, LAP vs TAP/TAG.

From the introduction to SSH: "While a winning strategy designed for the tighter tougher games of the past [read: HPFAP] will also win in these new conditions, it will not win the maximum" (their italics, not mine).

[Jakesta]

Your recommendations are good, Clayton, but I would have people follow this list instead:

Read WLLH
Play lots of hands
Read SSH
Play lots of hands
Read TOP
Read HPFAP
Re-read SSH
Re-read SSH

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
i strongly disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes at least 2.

Krishan

[Jacob_Gilliam]

My last reply on this post. I know that most of you disagree with my original post, and that's OK. I guess where i'm coming from is that I would rather learn how to play theoretically correct from the begining and add smaller details through practice, experience, and other readings. HEFAP seems better for this than SSHE. Given that I have already gone through .05/.10, .25/.50, .50/1.00, and am now on 1/2 in just a few months means that this strategy has worked for me. I do not claim to be the best player here, nor the most experienced. I was just putting my 2 cents in on what worked for me.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that you just throw pot odds and the such out the window. As you move up, you'll need to add more layers to your game, and it's better to learn that from the start, rather than an extremely formulaic approach.

[/ QUOTE ]

SSH lays a foundation upon which to build these other layers. If you have a firm foundation in a basic fundamental approach to the game, then the layers you build on it will be more stable. All of the extra layers simply add small shifts and tiny twists to your game.

Most of the extra layers are changes based on your knowledge of your opponents. You deviate from the standard plays when you can see how to manipulate your opponents into losing more money. But if you don't know what the right play is in the first place -- and *how* right it is -- you won't know how whether the deviation has enough value to be worth it.

Those plays are about squeezing an extra bet or two out of a good situation. If you're not already getting into those good situations, then those extra bets you win aren't going to make you into a winning player.

And I still don't understand why you think SSH is formulaic. It's certainly quite far from ABC poker books like WLLH.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, i'm betting that someone who was truely skilled at the game would make more from HEFAP and applying the more advanced skills correctly for the given game than someone who just route follows SSHE, which takes time to learn (abc poker) but much less skill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me quote something on page 3 of SSH:

[ QUOTE ]
The only problem is that Mason and I [David] have little experience playing against a table full of bad players. It's not a big problem. On pure theoretical understanding alone, we could explain proper plays and techniques to beat these games far better than the authors who have thus far attempted this task. But not being fully aware of how people play at these limits, we would fall short of perfection.

[/ QUOTE ]

Notice that S&M didn't write this book on their own because they lacked *KNOWLEDGE* of the players at this level. It's not just skill and abstract poker theory in a vacuum.

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess where i'm coming from is that I would rather learn how to play theoretically correct from the begining and add smaller details through practice, experience, and other readings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this sentence 100%. FWIW, differing opinions are the lifeblood of this site. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of n00bs trying to suck off the Pooh Bah knowledge tit, and that's really not the most effective way to learn the game either.

Anyway, kudos for keeping your head up in the face of criticism and adversity. I look forward to future debates.

-Salty

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah,
Ok I know which one now. I really think I'm probably ready for SSH so Im gonna pick that one up now, I think

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a wise decision. HEPFAP really won't be very applicable to most of the games you are playing in at this point.

[ClaytonN]

WLLH and SSHE both accomplish the same, but I tend to favor SSHE more.

Also, and we may disagree on this, but I strongly feel that TOP should be the first read by anyone who wants to win at poker.

SSHE is like teaching algebra, but TOP is like times tables. You understand the content of SSHE so much more clearly after reading TOP.

[Jakesta]

Maybe, but TOP is a very difficult read for a beginning player. I'd rather introduce them to hold em with WLLH, then SSH, then TOP. But your argument has merit. And SSH is not a beginner's book. I would not give it to someone as a first hold em book, unless they were already adept at stud or something.

[scotty34]

My advice for an order would be:

-Play a few hundred hands at play money or nanos so that you gain a basic understanding of the game and how it is played
-Read SSH to begin to realize what kind of concepts you are going to have to learn to apply to become a winner
-Play a few thousand hands at the nanos/micros as you attempt to apply some of concepts you are learning.
-Read SSH again to further develop your understanding of winning concepts.
-Play a few thousand more hands and apply what you have learned from SSH. Attempt to understand why you are doing what you are doing, don't just blindly do it. You should be able to beat the micro games by this point if you couldn't already.
-Read TOP to gain a much deeper understanding of the concepts of poker.
-Read SSH again, and you should now have a great understanding of what is being said in the book.
-Play a ton more hands.
-Read HEPFAP once you are confident in your ability in the micro games, and want to learn how to start really thinking hard and well about this game.


All the while, read the forums, reply to hands and post a few of your own trouble situations. Any point where you find a troubling situation, maybe re-read that particular section of SSH.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess where i'm coming from is that I would rather learn how to play theoretically correct from the begining and add smaller details through practice, experience, and other readings. HEFAP seems better for this than SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

"theoretically correct" is a relative term depending on the situation you are in. SSH teaches you the theory behind beating the low limit games simply because most of the players are BAD. HEPFAP teaches you the theory behind beating games where your opponents have a much better understanding of the game, and do not play near as poorly. The reason newer players should start with SSH is because they are going to be playing against BAD players, and SSH teaches the most profitable way to play against them. It openly admits that much of its advice will not work against tougher players. Seeing as how you won't have many tough opponents at the low limits, SSH is a better choice for a starting player. Yes HEPFAP teaches much deeper concepts and better methods of thinking, but its like anything else - in basketball you learn the layup and freethrow before you learn the fadeaway jumpers and hookshots.

[Jakesta]

[ QUOTE ]
in basketball you learn the layup and freethrow before you learn the fadeaway jumpers and hookshots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent analogy, seriously.

You must learn to crawl before you can walk is another.

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
WLLH and SSHE both accomplish the same, but I tend to favor SSHE more.

[/ QUOTE ]

WLLH is much simpler, and much easier to read and understand than SSHE. SSHE is a better book, much deeper in the theoretical aspects of the game, but if someone has never seriously studied poker before, I think WLLH is a far better first step.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Also, and we may disagree on this, but I strongly feel that TOP should be the first read by anyone who wants to win at poker.

SSHE is like teaching algebra, but TOP is like times tables. You understand the content of SSHE so much more clearly after reading TOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had TOP second, but it could easily be first. I think most people would rather read about how to win at the game they play first than understand some of the deeper theory though. That's the only reason I listed WLLH first.

[PJM1206]

I dont think there has been enough said or discussed on this topice so I thought I would augment this thread with some added views:

I have read all the books discussed plus many others and I enjoyed them all. I really enjoy poker both playing and studying. I think there are some other books that have great value to the beginner other than those mentioned. Two being Super System by Brunson and yes believe it or not Poker for Dummies by by Harroch and Kreiger. What is good about those two books is that they dont soley focus on Texas Holdem. When I started palying I started out in 7-card stud but quickly got fascinated with Texas Holdem. I think the new player needs exposure to all the games and then decide where they want to focus. Both these books cover Texas Holdem, 7-card stud, Omaha and more plus they are filled with great refences for further reading to include by the way this forum. So..... starting out Poker for Dummies and keep reading no one book has the answers

My 2 cents

[Ringo_Mojo]

Actually hitting a book like Poker for Dummies is probably a really good idea before reading TOP, then all the non-hold'em examples will make a lot more sense.

[istewart]

HEFAP is an amazing read, and as a book it might be my favorite 2+2 book, albeit not the most applicable to the games I play in.

On that note, I will have to disagree and say that SSHE is still the way to go.

[ClaytonN]

The OP isn't saying HEFAP is better than SSHE. He's saying that people who are new to Hold'Em should immediately jump into HEFAP. This has to be the most retarded thing I have read in this forum, ever. And this comes from personal experience, mind you. I was new to Hold'Em and bought HEFAP, and I didn't understand a damned thing past the hand charts.

[bottomset]

did the 1/2 game get a hell of a lot tougher since December?? because back then there was maybe 1good person on the table tops 2 ... and 6-7 donks of various degrees ... very easily beaten by SSHE style play

I expected the guy to be at least playing 3/6, 5/10 to be making these claims .. not just out of the superfish pond

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
The OP isn't saying HEFAP is better than SSHE. He's saying that people who are new to Hold'Em should immediately jump into HEFAP. This has to be the most retarded thing I have read in this forum, ever. And this comes from personal experience, mind you. I was new to Hold'Em and bought HEFAP, and I didn't understand a damned thing past the hand charts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read SSH 3 times, and have attempted to make a go at HEPFAP. I must say that even for me, I am thoroughly confused with at least half of HEPFAP. One part that threw me off that I remember right now is "You should be more inclined to call a bet on a raggy flop with KQo than AKo". The reasoning makes sense, but it's still quite "WTF?!?!".

EDIT: My personal feeling is that you can rush the microlimits with having read SSH only, but would be harder pressed having only read HEPFAP, as much of the concepts are very much inapplicable to these games.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
in basketball you learn the layup and freethrow before you learn the fadeaway jumpers and hookshots.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love basketball analogies! (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=2197070&amp;f part=1&amp;PHPSESSID=)

[cmwck]

I think if you read HPFAP as your first formal textbook, not only will you be confused (as you won't understand the general concepts that are the foundation for almost all logical poker play), but you will badly misapply the concepts presented in the book. As an example, I've seen some posters who seemingly stopped raising AQo preflop if there are limpers because HPFAP says to 'keep the pot small' ; bad, bad, misunderstanding of the book...

[imported_exelius]

Ok,
I just went out to get SSH to read, but saw Getting Stated in holdem by Ed Miller, so I bought both.

I thought it wouldnt hurt to read GSIH first since it was a smaller book. I read the whole book last night!!

After reading part of HEPFAP I now understand things more clearly. I'm going to put HEPFAP away for now and read SSH next. GSIH maybe realize more about value betting and information on pairs and such, and also protecting your hand.

Ed Miller is my new hero!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks for the recommendation guys on GSIH, It definitely should be the first book, then SSH.

Thanks,
Ex

[Preytar]

I couldn't agree more.

I started playing several years ago with little knowledge of the game other than hand rankings. A year ago I realized there had to be a better way of playing poker.

Like several others, I started with WLLH and progressed to SSH and TOP. I read GSIH recently, and I wish it had been available a year ago.

I have several friends who want to play better at low limits, and I recommend (in order):

1. GSIH
2. SSH
3. TOP
4. HPFAP (as they move up in limits)

[AmarilloJim1]

[ QUOTE ]
SSHE is still the way to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
in basketball you learn the layup and freethrow before you learn the fadeaway jumpers and hookshots.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love basketball analogies! (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=2197070&amp;f part=1&amp;PHPSESSID=)

[/ QUOTE ]

So does Sklansky (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=tv&amp;Number=1203799&amp;Forum=Al l_Forums&amp;Words=%2Bfree%20%2Bthrows&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Li mit=25&amp;Main=1203799&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;Name =5&amp;daterange=1&amp;newerval=1&amp;newertype=&amp;olderval=&amp;old ertype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post1203799)

[droolie]

This is weird advice. HEFAP is for advanced players playing against other advanced players. Most of the advice is for playing against players who are paying attention to your play. This is not the best approach for a newbie to learn. Varying your play and being difficult to read are just not that important at micros and these skills can wait. HEFAP as a book is disjointed and quite dense to the point of being downright discouraging to a newbie. I have found much of it to be quite useful but I would never recommend it to anybody as their first poker book.

SSH is also a very tough read too though. I think it is geared towards decent players looking to improve their game not utter noobs. I usually recommend it to newbies because grinding through it is better than learning the weak tight system found in the very readable but flawed WLLH. Given the raves about Getting Started in Hold'em and knowing the author's other work I guess I'd have to start recommending GSIHE before reading SSH.

My recommendations in order....
GSIHE
SSH
TOP
HEFAP
Middle Limit Hold 'Em (Ciaffone)

[ClaytonN]

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One part that threw me off that I remember right now is "You should be more inclined to call a bet on a raggy flop with KQo than AKo".

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The general reasoning behind this, in layman's terms, is that you're playing against tighter and smarter players who will be more inclined to put you on AK on raggedy flops.

Therefore, by holding KQ, you can bet with confidence if a K or Q falls, and bet when an ace falls "representing AK", so to speak. Hope that makes sense.

[johnc]

SSHE should be #1 read. IMHO ToP has to be next. My understanding of the material in SSHE particularly the reasoning behind it increased dramatically after reading Top and re-reading SSHE. HEFAP is a very good read but I believe it gives the opponents at the low limits way too much credit and may even encourage MUBS in an otherwise impressionable newbie-save it for much later.