AQo- completely lost.

[deepsquat]

Wow, did i get lost on this hand. Sorry for all the posts but im getting totally pwned lately. How does this hand look?

No reads.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Standard raise?

Turn: (7.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

On the turn i felt there was a reasonable chance my hand was best.

River: (10.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

[adsman]

Overcards are such a bastard. remember that overcards like ragged boards, few opponents and backdoor draws. Unfortuantely this is not a ragged board, you've got 3 opponents and your backdoor draws are very weak. This is also tough without reads. If these guys are calling stations then you're not going to get away with this very often. If MP2 was an aggressive player who liked to follow up I would smoothcall the flop and raise a turn bet. It's only costing half a bet more than raising the flop and it's likely to be much more effective.
It's tempting to just check this away on the river but I've won a lot of pots in these situations by firing one last time. But again, in this situatiion reads would be a big help.

[Nick Royale]

My standard (readless) is betting this turn if I got it HU. In this case I check planning to fold the river UI.

You'll be good here (on the turn) in 1/2 more often than I will in 3/6, but I still think you'll only win this pot only rarely UI. The turn bet isn't terrible IMO. I also like betting turn when I don't have [censored], and fold to raises, but I think that's a bad habit since we're giving up on outs. You should look at the board and judge how likely they are calling with only draws. In this case the coldcaller will often have a 9, and the flop bettor could have a flushdraw or whatever. This should make you more inclined to bet/fold. But again, against 2 players checking is better. HU I'm betting the turn for a free showdown with a hand with showdown value, AQ will often win against a busted draw on the river, but you can't count on 2 busted draws.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
If MP2 was an aggressive player who liked to follow up I would smoothcall the flop and raise a turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Follow up with what? If we miss the turn then raising it would be spewing. We raise the flop since we have 2 overs and a bdfd in a big pot. The pfr is pretty likely to be betting a draw and we might isolate him. On the turn the chance of him betting a draw is 0 and thus a raise terrible.

[ QUOTE ]
It's tempting to just check this away on the river but I've won a lot of pots in these situations by firing one last time. But again, in this situatiion reads would be a big help.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ever thought about what hands are folding here? 90% of the time it's busted draws. Your chance of taking the pot is alomost equally big if you check the river since they will only rarely fold a better hand. Most often when you believe you've bluffed the river successfully you've just folded busted draws.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
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If MP2 was an aggressive player who liked to follow up I would smoothcall the flop and raise a turn bet.

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Follow up with what? If we miss the turn then raising it would be spewing. We raise the flop since we have 2 overs and a bdfd in a big pot. The pfr is pretty likely to be betting a draw and we might isolate him. On the turn the chance of him betting a draw is 0 and thus a raise terrible.

[ QUOTE ]
It's tempting to just check this away on the river but I've won a lot of pots in these situations by firing one last time. But again, in this situatiion reads would be a big help.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ever thought about what hands are folding here? 90% of the time it's busted draws. Your chance of taking the pot is alomost equally big if you check the river since they will only rarely fold a better hand. Most often when you believe you've bluffed the river successfully you've just folded busted draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said in my post, this would be a read dependent play. And I was talking about a situation where the villian liked to blindly follow up, as a lot of bad players at these levels tend to do.
Also the difference between raising the flop and raising the turn is half a bet. I don't know if I would consider that spewing. Spewing to me would be capping the turn to a 3 bet etc. I think Hero stands a much better chance of winning this hand if he can get it HU, and IF the villian was the type who liked to follow up his flop bets then I think this play by spending half a bet more would have a better chance of taking down this pot.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Also the difference between raising the flop and raising the turn is half a bet. I don't know if I would consider that spewing. Spewing to me would be capping the turn to a 3 bet etc. I think Hero stands a much better chance of winning this hand if he can get it HU, and IF the villian was the type who liked to follow up his flop bets then I think this play by spending half a bet more would have a better chance of taking down this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, spewing... I don't know what to call it, but it's poor play. We are investing 2BB in a pot we should fold looking at the pot odds (getting 7:1). And we choose to do it where we only have 1 card coming to help our doomed hand, in a postion where it's very unlikely any player would bet a hand we beat. Add to that a raise here won't give us a free card, but a free showdown we most often don't want. There are no reason to wait to the turn to pop a garbage hand unless we does it as a complete bluff.

[adsman]

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There are no reason to wait to the turn to pop a garbage hand unless we does it as a complete bluff.

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Semi-bluff. We do have some outs. Don't get me wrong though, I agree with what you say. I would only make this play against a certain type of player. It would also heavily depend on my table image at the time.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]

Semi-bluff. We do have some outs. Don't get me wrong though, I agree with what you say. I would only make this play against a certain type of player. It would also heavily depend on my table image at the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, with the certain reads it could be done at times. Just wanted to make sure this should be far from any default play.

[iNsChris]

*Posting blind*

Preflop: fine.
Flop: I call, Your hand is weak. Possibly max 6 outs(7:1)
Turn: Bet, Fold to a raise.
River: UI Check/Fold - Looks like they missed there cards.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: I call, Your hand is weak. Possibly max 6 outs(7:1)


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2 weak backdoors for ~1.5-2 outs in total. Over ~4 outs. total ~6 outs. You can't fold and since the bettor might bet a draw raising to isolate him is better.

[Ringo_Mojo]

If you felt your hand had a reasonable chance to be best on the turn what did the 4/images/graemlins/club.gif give your opponents that made you change your mind?

In reality i think you're beat, MP2 likley has a busted draw, but MP1 calling on the flop says he got a piece of the board probably Tx or 9x.
After betting the turn you should have bet the river. You've shown aggression all the way and i think there's enough chance that a river bet will fold a weak pair that it would be profitable.

[Nick Royale]

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If you felt your hand had a reasonable chance to be best on the turn what did the 4/images/graemlins/club.gif give your opponents that made you change your mind?

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If he thinks he's ahead on the turn he's betting to charge draws. The draws will fold the river if they miss and no worse hand will call a bet.

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You've shown aggression all the way and i think there's enough chance that a river bet will fold a weak pair that it would be profitable.

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If you think MP1 is willing to call 2 cold on the flop with this pair he'll call a bet on the river as well. i don't think a river bet will fold a better hand and it definately won't get calls from worse hands. Check.

[2+2 wannabe]

grunching

i'd be tempted to fold this flop, but won't argue with someone who plays it the way you did (i don't mind it)

on the turn, however, i think you have to take the free card (if you thought your hand was best on the turn, why not fire the river as well on a rag?)

i'd check behind on the turn and river

[Jakesta]

Why are you raising the flop? Your backdoor diamond draw is almost useless because it's the Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I call this flop and fold the turn unimproved.

[Nick Royale]

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(if you thought your hand was best on the turn, why not fire the river as well on a rag?)

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[ QUOTE ]
If he thinks he's ahead on the turn he's betting to charge draws. The draws will fold the river if they miss and no worse hand will call a bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Nick Royale]

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Why are you raising the flop? Your backdoor diamond draw is almost useless because it's the Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

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No, how often will 1 card of the bettors 2 cards be A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif or K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif?

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I call this flop and fold the turn unimproved.

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You'll not be giving up much by this line, but I like raising the flop better.