Am I Going To Hell?? :-O

[JAA]

$3-$6 game at my local B&M.

Q8o in big blind, 7 or so see the flop for one bet. Flop AQ3 rainbow. I check, everyone else checks to the button. As he goes to bet, dealer partially flips the turn (the room I play in currently has a bunch of new dealers who are HORRIBLE and make follies like this all the time) and I get a brief glance at the card before she puts it back on the top of the deck. Anywho, button makes his bet and I am faced with quite a predicament...I'm 90% sure the turn will be a black queen, giving me trips and having a 50% shot of completing the rainbow.

In this game I would normally fold in this situation most of the time, but now I don't know what to do. Sould I muck like I would've if i didn't see the turn, or do I stay in because it's not my fault I saw the card? To make a long story short, I call as do 2 others. Someone makes a comment to the dealer that someone could've seen the card, and player in the 1 seat who folded says "Well the only people who could've are out of the hand anyway" (he was referring to himself and the 10 seat....I was in the 5 seat and saw it, so I'm thinking that I must've been looking at just the right angle at the right second)

So, I decide to pretend I just decided to gamble and got lucky. I checkraise the turn, get two callers, bet the river and get called down by a strong ace.

After thinking about the hand for the next hour or so, I begin to feel like I did something unethical.

What would you have done? or more importantly, what was the right thing to do?

Thanks for any comments - JAA

[Dynasty]

You should have said you saw the card.

[JAA]

Yes in hindsight this has been the conclusion I have come to. Although I had two qualms: a.) I would've felt like a real idiot if I was wrong about the card, and b.) I knew most of the people at the table and I couldn't picture ANY of them indicating that they saw the card.

Obviously this is no excuse not to be a better person, but in the heat of the moment I kinda just went with the flow. I won't lie I'm not impressed with my judgment in this situation.

- JAA

[Dynasty]

BTW, if you didn't see the turn card in advance, you shouldn't be folding on the flop. In fact, you should probably be check-raising when the bet comes from the button.

[Ed Miller]

Regardless of the ethical questions... you should have checkraised the flop... not called.

[brad]

real answer looks like more than one person saw the card.

interesting that none of them admitted it (although one of the guys kinda did admit it but says didnt matter since he folded)

what a game.

[MrTeilhof]

It would have ruined my nights sleep, but we are all different . Hope u learn 2 be a better person in the future. :-)

[JAA]

BTW, if you didn't see the turn card in advance, you shouldn't be folding on the flop. In fact, you should probably be check-raising when the bet comes from the button .

Normally I would agree, but not against the lineup I was playing with. The game at that point of the night was EXTREMELY passive. Note that the caller had AJ and the button didn't show but said he had a weak A.

There were only two players in that game that would bet that flop without an A, and neither were involved in the hand.

- JAA

[JAA]

I'm interested to hear why you would check-raise the flop here. If you know you're going to trip on the turn, wouldn't you want to let bottom pairs/unpaired high cards chase for one bet if they want to? Also, if I check-raised the flop I would be unable to checkraise the turn....

Maybe what you're saying is purposely neglecting me knowing that I was going to turn trips....In which case you can see my response to Dynasty above when he made a similar comment.

- JAA

[JAA]

[J_V]

Buzzz.........this is a fold. Not only is it wrong to assume the button probably doesn't have an ace, but its not certain that these low limit turkeys would bet the ace. Also, your kicker blows, and even if it is good you will have to survive not to get suckedout on. In a low limit game, this is a way to lose a lot of chips. At the high limits, players outplay themselves in these scenarios quite often. The c/r would be routine in a shorthanded pot, however the pot is not shorthanded.

I know this is a free forum, but the advice given these days isn't worth a nickel.

[brad]

'The c/r would be routine in a shorthanded pot, however the pot is not shorthanded'

i agree with you almost totally for this reason. (ie someone checked looking to checkraise, not cause theyre weak.)

[thebroker]

After seeing thet Q go back on top the deck, I'd raise the flop hoping for the button to 3 bet. Then when it hit I'd bet the turn and go for check-raise on river.

[bernie]

im not so quick to fold to a button bet here. in fact i may go for the c/r here. and that's without seeing the card. but of course, when you can see the next card, you can maybe call and play the way you did.

however, i also am a player who likes to play a player policed game. so if anyone was in the hand who saw the card, id likely call for a new card. this also gives more credibility when a real dispute comes along. nothing makes a good statement for credibility than calling a penalty on yourself. but that's also selective. id be less likely to call it if i was in a new room. but i think the regulars should speak up and protect their own games' integrity...

b

[bernie]

even if you knew the button had a lone A, it's a good move to c/r here. you still could very well have 5 clean outs, and this would maximize your chances at winning.

b

[Ed Miller]

He altered his play based on the turn card that he saw prematurely. He turned a fold into a call. I think that he should have turned a fold into a raise. I see no good reason for a "slowplay" (premature that it is) here. If I had flopped trip Q's... I would raise here more often than smooth call. Maybe he didn't want to raise because then it would look suspicious when his card comes down on the turn. Maybe he should have said that he saw the card and not sacrificed his ethics for a 7 SB pot. But either way, I think he should raise on the flop... not call.

Obviously if you don't know a Q is coming... in a seven-handed unraised pot, this is a clear fold.

[KOJAK]

You probably are going to hell, yes.

[JTG51]

Call me a goodie two shoes, but I agree. Some things are more important than making a few extra bucks.

[JAA]

OK, I Could have 5 clean outs, and if I do I'm looking at a little worse than 9:1 odds of catching. There are 7 or 8 bets in the pot (I wish I could remember exactly how many people were in). I'm 95% sure I'm up against top pair or better. (Like I said above, there were only 2 players at the table who would play contrary to this and they weren't in the hand).

This being said, maybe I'm giving up a tiny shade of EV here, but I'm inclined to save my chips for a better opportunity here. I really think you all would agree if you were at my table for a couple hours that night. This was a sort of odd game.

- JAA

[JAA]

OK that makes more sense major...

Unfortunately I was too busy thinking of what I should do about thinking I saw the turn card to be able to optimally play the flop.

Thanks for your comments - JAA

[JAA]

[ChipWrecked]

Is this an ethical decision because you are up against other players and not the house? In blackjack, I'd consider a peek at a dealer's hole card to be manna from heaven. Wouldn't think twice about gaining an advantage from it. But I'm still kinda new to poker.

Secondly, do they not burn a card before laying one down? Maybe I'm missing something here.

[JAA]

No they do burn....She burned and partially turned before the button could articulate that he wanted to bet.

And yes, this wouldn't be 1/10th the predicament if I was playing against the house.

- JAA

[bernie]

this is a raise/fold spot given where the bet came from. not a calling situation. this is without seeing the turn card. calling, IMO would be the worst option here.

b

[AmericanAirlines]

[JAA]

Obviously I would never just call here.....

[RollaJ]

Funny, the same thing happened t me the other day at black jack. I was in seat one with 2 tens against a dealers ace showing (she checked for black jack, but didnt have it) lucky for me tho when she dealt out her 2nd card her fingernails got stuck on the shoe and showed 2 aces, so I split my tens and got 2 21's....yahoo!

Ok on a more serious note, why in the world would you fold, or check.... raise raise raise. Part of this game is to be observant to get all the info you can and BET WHEN YOU HAVE THE BEST OF IT!!! Everyone always says, you are not there for fun, you are there to make money Bet the damn hand!

And if you were going to hell you would have known because someone whould have turned over A-Q on the end /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

[JAA]

Ok on a more serious note, why in the world would you fold, or check

I never said anything about checking or folding, my only question was whether to raise on the flop or wait until the turn to checkraise.

And if you were going to hell you would have known because someone whould have turned over A-Q on the end

Very good point...That would've been a perfect ending to the predicament. :-)

- JAA

[ElSapo]

If they burn a card, why did they not, considering the pause, burn the next one (the queen) and then deal. Seems like burning a card is designed to eliminate things like what actually did happen... Or is there a problem I'm unaware of with burning two?

[JAA]

[Trefo]

You did nothing wrong you did not cheat you just were observant and took advantage of a dealer's mistake. If i'm playing with strangers i'll bet it as hard as i could...With friends i would say i saw the turn card.