Adjusting to 1/2 (a hand)

[Duerig]

My biggest question on this hand is my play on the turn, but feel free to comment on any part of the hand. At .50/1.00 this turn would have been an auto raise, because people love to call down. At 1/2 though I think the average player is a bit more tight. Do you raise the turn or call?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $1.5.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) checks, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, MP2 folds.

River: (9.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

[DMBFan23]

I think you should raise the turn because there are many players in, but heads up I would have really dug waiting for the river.

one reason to raise the turn with more players in is because you're more likely to see someone with the A or K of trump and they will gladly call the two cold.

[ClaytonN]

I'll be the first to say fold preflop

Flop call is marginally +EV

Raise the turn, it's multiway!

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop call is marginally +EV

[/ QUOTE ]
Wtf?

[ClaytonN]

WTF to your wtf

Do the math

[milesdyson]

Think about this more, please. If you think calling here is only marginally +EV, I don't know what to say. That's really bad.

You're making a huge mistake if you're thinking, "we have 9 outs, so we need... "

[Maurader1]

I agree we should raise the turn, but unclear on why.
Do we want the A/K/images/graemlins/spade.gif to call two cold, or are we trying to fold A/K/images/graemlins/spade.gif and thereby protect our hand against a fourth spade on the river?

[DMBFan23]

I wouldnt mind the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif or K /images/graemlins/spade.gif calling two cold, aside from the fact that OESDs and two pair hands, and hell even one pair hands, will call the two cold. the only hand I truly want to fold is a set, but hey I also want a bj from natalie portman /images/graemlins/smile.gif

EDIT: I will also jump on the fold preflop bandwagon

[ClaytonN]

Ohhhh shite.

I had MP2 as folding. He called.

This changes things. This hand is stronger than I originally thought.

Now it's more like "fairly strong +EV, but not very strong +EV".

I READ GOOD

By the way: FOLD PREFLOP!

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
WTF to your wtf

Do the math

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you skipped the implied odds section of SSHE, champ.

[PuckNPoker]

I'd raise the flop, you might get a free card out of it if you wanted and you have a equity edge over the field. FD, overcard (discounted), and BSD, you have a strong hand. I like the turn play, you have made your hand and all the overcallers are probably drawing dead or close to it (although you can make a lot of single spades pay double).

As for pf, I dont like it but I think this might be oen of those "take of the training wheel" hands Ed talk about, if it isnt a habit and situational. From the CO and the fact that you essentially have two random hands (MP3 and BB) in the hand makes up for the weakness of the hand.

[Vagrant]

I think this enitre hand is -EV, if you are coming in with Q7 suited in middle position you are going to lose the vast majority of the time.Whether you maximized your winnings on this single hand is of no consequence, playting q7s in middle position is a losing play.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldnt mind the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif or K /images/graemlins/spade.gif calling two cold, aside from the fact that OESDs and two pair hands, and hell even one pair hands, will call the two cold. the only hand I truly want to fold is a set, but hey I also want a bj from natalie portman /images/graemlins/smile.gif

EDIT: I will also jump on the fold preflop bandwagon

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly let the donks donk their money away

[mmbt0ne]

Anyone hate 3-betting the flop? No? Ok, 3-bet the flop.

[PuckNPoker]

If he completed from the SB would you be giving saying it as bad of play?

4.5 to 1 on a call with position (CO is LP not MP), mild high card value, and suitedness. I dont think it nearly as bad as you're are making it. In general you dont play
the hand but I think situationally, this isnt bad at all.

This is a good post to go over:
http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=495010&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1

[SteveL91]

But, he didn't complete from the SB. You can't fairly compare limping with completing, in my opinion. There's a big difference between tossing in the extra half a bet with massive odds on your side when you're already half way in the pot and consciously deciding to invest a whole SB in a garbage hand with people already in the hand.

If five loose-passives limp to you on the button, are you going to play J5s? What about if you're in the SB and five loose-passives limp to you? Big difference.

[PuckNPoker]

The odds are the odds when comparing the size of the bet to the pot.

The question is, if you were completing in the sb getting 4.5 to 1 on a completion with Q7s would that be as bad as the posters calling with position (depending on how bad the players that are in the hand play). In general you dont want to be in the hand with Q7s (as I said before) but with essentially 2 random hands in and position, suitedness, and mild high card value, I dont think this is as terrible call as some are making it out to be.

Also you appear to add additional weight to "already being in the hand", this is a mistake imho. You weigh the odds against a bet and hand strength on an individual basis, if you limped with QJo in Mp3 and it came back to you capped, would you stay in the hand?

[ClaytonN]

Maybe with 6 or 7 people in the hand, Puck, but not just 5. It's borderline, and I think it's more in the -EV when it comes to preflop equity.

That said, a good postflop player can make up for that.

[PuckNPoker]

If this was A7s everyone would have told him to raise and isolate with all the dead money (3 SB) in the pot pf. Essentially BB and Mp3 (who posted 1.5 SB) are random, the OP gave no reads on the players (essential to making the call) but if these guys arent tight good players this is a SOLID pf call. Where it gets marginal is if one of the players is a good player.

[hbaromega]

I fold this pre-flop but calling is probably ok if you play well after the flop.

I think going for the overcall is fine since the pot is somewhat small.

river looks good

[Mister Z]

Fold Preflop

I like the turn call because it allows worse hands to hang themselves and loses less money if out-flushed or against an unlikely boat. I think the river raise is nice.

[Jakesta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldnt mind the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif or K /images/graemlins/spade.gif calling two cold, aside from the fact that OESDs and two pair hands, and hell even one pair hands, will call the two cold. the only hand I truly want to fold is a set, but hey I also want a bj from natalie portman /images/graemlins/smile.gif

EDIT: I will also jump on the fold preflop bandwagon

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly let the donks donk their money away

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you calling the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif/K/images/graemlins/spade.gif people donkish, or the preflop call donkish?

[SteveL91]

If you're going to look at the strength of a hand, then I don't know that there really is a question: Q7s really doesn't have enough redeeming quality to make it worth a limp. It'll just make the second best hand too often. Oddly enough, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with playing Q7s if it was for a raise, but with a limper and poster in already, I don't know that I'd do it regularly.

Getting 4.5:1 in the SB with Q7s, I'd probably complete as I think three previous limpers is enough to take a shot, but there's no way I'd put in a full SB. It's just not worth it. This doesn't at all compare to mucking QJo when it comes back to me capped. In that case, there are monsters lurking about; that doesn't really apply in an unraised pot. Also, maybe it's just a mental thing, but I think there's a tangible difference between actually limping and taking a flyer in the SB when you're already half-way in an unraised pot.

While Q7s does appear to have some value to it against a few random hands, I don't think it's enough to warrant going after a situation that will be very marginal. So, I agree with you that it's probably not as bad of a call as I initially thought.... I just don't see why it's worth playing in this situation; make it Q9s or maybe even Q8s and I'd be fine with it as I'd likely play those hands too.

[hbaromega]

why would we intentionally give a higher flush draw correct odds to call? i would definitely raise if there was a good chance that someone had A /images/graemlins/spade.gif or K /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Duerig]

Thanks for the replies everyone. A few clarifications on my thinking:

1) I think the pf call would be marginal, except that there is the dead money from the poster in the pot. I considered raising this pf actually to isolate. I recently realized my vpip is around 16 so I've been trying to add a few hands here and there.

2) If I knew someone had A or K of spades, I would raise this turn in a heartbeat. At .50/1.00 I could imagine an opponent calling 2 cold with some medium spade but I wasn't sure if they'd pay off here in the face of aggression.

3) I think 3 betting the flop would have been a better line.

[iNsChris]

*posting blind*
PreFlop: Fold it.
Flop: Fine.
Turn: Raise
River:Fine.

*(fingers crossed no one has set&gt;Full House)*

[stlip]

Fold preflop definitely. Not only is hand marginal, but there are three potential raisers still behind you to make you pay even more for this hand you don't want to be playing.

Turn, I call and play for the two overcalls, plus I don't want to be 3-bet in case someone made a nut flush or boat.

[SlantNGo]

A7s, yes I 3-bet. Q7s? No. We're not cleaning up any outs, and it's a pretty thin 3-bet for value. Depending on what the others do, a 3-bet may knock out more than you wanted.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone hate 3-betting the flop? No? Ok, 3-bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[MDO67]

I am folding preflop here. Q7s isn't that strong. Other than that I would raise.

- Mark

[Rev. Good Will]

Nice hand.

I think going for overcalls on the turn is a good move, raising here would definitely drive people out.

EDIT - Whoa! I thought that was you who was posting PF... with that in mind, fold PF

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
A7s, yes I 3-bet. Q7s? No. We're not cleaning up any outs, and it's a pretty thin 3-bet for value. Depending on what the others do, a 3-bet may knock out more than you wanted.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Anyone hate 3-betting the flop? No? Ok, 3-bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't care about cleaning up outs, we care about value. You are in position, with 2 aggressors and a 3rd person trapped along for the ride. At least 2 people are calling the 3-bet, and you will be in position to take a free card.

Here are your choices as I see them:
1) Call 2 SB on the flop, and 1 BB on the turn assuming you miss. Your hand isn't disguised at all, which probably isn't a problem at .50/1, but it's something to consider.
2) Put 3 SB in on the flop, pay nothing on the turn if you miss, or bet out when you hit.

If you account for your backdoor straight draws here, even if only 2 people call along on the flop, you are making money with every bet that goes in on the flop.

3-bet the flop.

[SlantNGo]

[ QUOTE ]
You are in position, with 2 aggressors and a 3rd person trapped along for the ride.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the best assumption at 1/2. MP2 is likely out and a 3-bet may even drop BB. If the pot was raised pre-flop, that tends to tie people to the pot a bit more.

[ QUOTE ]
At least 2 people are calling the 3-bet, and you will be in position to take a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another crucial assumption there, although this one is more accurate. I think you will get the free card 60 to 70% of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
Here are your choices as I see them:
1) Call 2 SB on the flop, and 1 BB on the turn assuming you miss. Your hand isn't disguised at all, which probably isn't a problem at .50/1, but it's something to consider.
2) Put 3 SB in on the flop, pay nothing on the turn if you miss, or bet out when you hit.

If you account for your backdoor straight draws here, even if only 2 people call along on the flop, you are making money with every bet that goes in on the flop.

3-bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can guarantee that 2 people will come along with you on the flop, it's a great 3-bet. But you're forcing two people to call 2 cold, which is no problem against a 0.5/1 fish, but a typical 1/2 player is less likely to do so.

The one thing that 3-betting avoids is the turn decision Hero faced here. Give him outs for the overcard and backdoor straight draws, and it's close. I'd 3-bet it if BB and MP3 were loose players.

[PuckNPoker]

I dont understand this reasoning at all, if you 3 bet and it forces out 2 people, that is a great 3 bet. You've increased your chance of winning the pot with a lesser hand than your flush coming in.

If you 3 bet and they stay in, then you get tremendous value. Either way, win-win.

[SlantNGo]

I don't believe that is the case at all. How are you increasing your chances of winning the pot with a lesser hand? By spiking your overcard? If you hit a Queen, you'll probably have the best hand anyways. If, however, it was an Ace, those overcard outs may be dirty, so then we want to drive out a higher Ace or worse, something like A6.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand this reasoning at all, if you 3 bet and it forces out 2 people, that is a great 3 bet. You've increased your chance of winning the pot with a lesser hand than your flush coming in.

[/ QUOTE ]

[PuckNPoker]

If you 3 bet the flop and get Ace-x or King-x to fold you've increased your chances of winning, for example if the turn came Ace or King and the river came a Queen. It is much more likely HU from the flop forward that your Queen is good. Or even if someone will fold their 6 or 8 and give you a chance at winning with one pair if they would have made trips of 2 pair by the river.

As much grief as people gave this guy preflop, I think the biggest mistakes (assuming he doesnt always play weak hands like Q7s) he made was postflop. He lost quite a lot of value on the flop, and the turn is debateable (I initially liked it but after thinking about it more I really dont like it, either you make the single spades pay double (and some of those arent even good) or you will get bit in the butt often enough to make just calling a mistake over raising)

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
The odds are the odds when comparing the size of the bet to the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

... AND the size of future bets. When you limp you are putting in .5BB, when you complete you are putting in .25BB. Even if the current pot odds are the same, that is an important difference.

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
1) I think the pf call would be marginal, except that there is the dead money from the poster in the pot. I considered raising this pf actually to isolate. I recently realized my vpip is around 16 so I've been trying to add a few hands here and there.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't hate raising here. I rarely just call when there is a poster in the hand; if I don't feel comfortable raising, then I normally fold. That said calling and folding are both fine too. My default is to fold, but whatever.

[PuckNPoker]

Yes, it is an important difference when considering implied odds especially. But there is also a difference in position. If you were offered a choice of having the button every hand (yes I know the guy is the CO here) but paying .5bb a hand to play. Or always being in the SB (with someone else always paying the initial part of the blind) and having to pay .25bb a hand which would you take?

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, it is an important difference when considering implied odds especially. But there is also a difference in position. If you were offered a choice of having the button every hand (yes I know the guy is the CO here) but paying .5bb a hand to play. Or always being in the SB (with someone else always paying the initial part of the blind) and having to pay .25bb a hand which would you take?

[/ QUOTE ]

(Pokertraker to the rescue.) I would take the SB, and it is not particularly close. I have historically won about 10BB/100 from the button and lost about 10BB/100 from the SB. Throw in an extra 25BB/100 to play in the small blind it is clearly better.

That said, yes, position is a factor, particularly so with a hand like Q7s. Still, that is a fold in late position and an easy call in the SB (with no raise and a couple limpers).