Who the best and worst tippers?? (For Dealers, but anyone is welcome

[balt999]

I've been working at BAllys Poker room for 3 weeks and I've come to my personal observation of who are the best and worst tippers...

1) Young Asian Males (By far the best; Doesn't matter what the pot is..they'll throw 3 or 4 bucks at a time)
2) Mid/Older Males
3) Women
4) Young White Males (By far are the worst, expecially if it's NL)

Thoughts??

[andyfox]

Who smell the worst?

[Dynasty]

You probably won't get to experience this at Bally's. But, tipping gets worse the higher in limits you deal.

[Jordan Olsommer]

OK.

I don't want to start a flamewar or anything here (honest!), but I have to ask.

Tipping a waitress is often argued as correct "to insure promptness" or "to insure prompt service" or whatever.

But a dealer??

What's he going to do - give you better cards if you tip him? Or is it going to be like some kind of socially-acceptable extortion where he is more likely to "accidentally" scoop your hand into the muck if you're a bad/non-tipper (sort of like how some people say you should tip waiters/waitresses "or else they'll piss in your food" or something along those lines).

The only reasons I can see why people tip dealers are therefore a) not to look cheap in front of the other players (social pressure); and/or b) empathy or pity (arising out of a concern because they realize that dealers rely heavily on tips, in which case that makes for a very interesting contrast - the cold-hearted poker player who'd bust his own grandmother if she got into a pot with him, yet feels compelled to toss a piece of each pot he wins to someone who agreed to work for X an hour on his own volition with the understanding that tips may or may not come).

Any thoughts on this?

[tomdemaine]

[ QUOTE ]
Any thoughts on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're cheap?

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any thoughts on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're cheap?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I've never played in a B&M cardroom, so I've never even been given the opportunity to tip a dealer before.

Also, while you are of course free to post whatever you want, I politely requested for thoughts on this topic, not braindead comments that you were apparently too lazy to provide evidence or argument for or even to construct a banal joke around. Thanks for playing anyway, though.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi balt999:

Your post is the sort of thing that has always irritated me about many cardrooms and the attitudes that many cardroom employees have. Instead of trying to figure out who tips the most and who tips the least, you should be concentrating on what you need to do to maximize your tips. You should discover that the better you do your job, regardless of of who might be in your game, the more you will make in tip money.

best wishes,
Mason

[b0000000000m]

Ok, so what you're saying is you're irritated by posts or discussions that are about any aspect of a dealer's experience other than the dealers maximizing their own profits? Even on the NVG forum of 2+2?

Are dealers allowed to post or think about baseball? What about Hold'em strategy? Naked women? Or should all their time be solely devoted to maximizing their tips?

He may be able to make more by spending his time trying to become more efficient and a more tip-worthy dealer than he would by doing other things (where "other things" includes posting on 2+2 for the purpose of personal enjoyment) but I think your being "irritated" by the post is unreasonable.

[Mason Malmuth]

I think when dealers deal they should concentrate on dealing. It seems like some of them want to concentrate on anything but dealing, and then they complain, and sometimes quite loudly, about how bad the players treat them.

MM

[andyfox]

It's simply the accepted practice. Tipping waitresses may have started as something done To Insure Prompt Service, but it is no longer the case.

[InkyWretch]

Mason is right.

A new cardroom just opened here. An older guy, probably in his 60s, named Chip is working there as a dealer. Turns out, he dealt in Vegas years and years ago.

He rakes in more tips than anybody else because he keeps the game going in a professional manner and because he's able to carry on a conversation while doing so.

He and I have a standing agreement that he'll tell stories from the old days in Vegas at $1 per. He was telling a few one night and nobody else was taking care of him. So he started whispering the stories to me when I folded. It was pissing off a few of the other players. But Chip just smiled and said "This gentleman is the only one paying to hear the stories. If you'll follow his lead, you'll all get to hear what he's hearing."

Obviously, new dealers won't have those experiences to help build tips. But you can learn from watching the older guys.

[b0000000000m]

[ QUOTE ]
He rakes in more tips than anybody else because he keeps the game going in a professional manner and because he's able to carry on a conversation while doing so.

[/ QUOTE ]

No no no!!! says Mason. Imagine how much more he'd make in tips if he wasn't carrying on a conversation!

[InkyWretch]

Well, it should be noted that he adjusts his game to the table. When he's at the 5/10 NL table, he scales it back and only speaks when needed. The story-telling usually happens at the 4/8 tables.

[Mason Malmuth]

I agree. I much prefer to have the dealer paying attention to the game at hand.

Best wishes,
mason

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, while you are of course free to post whatever you want, I politely requested for thoughts on this topic, not braindead comments that you were apparently too lazy to provide evidence or argument for or even to construct a banal joke around. Thanks for playing anyway, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there have been about 4 xillion threads on this topic. Every single one of them has a bunch of cheapskates trying to justify their stiffing the dealers. Search if you want to read their "thoughts" on the matter, otherwise get flamed.

My personal opinion: if you don't want to tip, then that's fine, don't tip, but STFU, we don't want to hear convoluted justifications of how you think tipping is bad or how you think dealer quality would magically remain constant if everyone suddenly quit tipping.

[balt999]

Mason,

As much as I respect your opinion I have to disagree...At the lower limits (Which are Bally's main games), 98 percent of the people are NOT going to tip based on how a dealer runs a game...

[Burno]

FWIW, Tips does not stand for To insure prompt service or anything like that.

Would you like to know more?

http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/tip.htm

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, there have been about 4 xillion threads on this topic. Every single one of them has a bunch of cheapskates trying to justify their stiffing the dealers. Search if you want to read their "thoughts" on the matter, otherwise get flamed.

My personal opinion: if you don't want to tip, then that's fine, don't tip, but STFU, we don't want to hear convoluted justifications of how you think tipping is bad or how you think dealer quality would magically remain constant if everyone suddenly quit tipping.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's funny, I recall having said that I've never even been in a position to tip or not tip a dealer, and wasn't arguing against the practice per se, merely asking for the reasons behind it.

And thanks for telling me to "STFU" when, if you want to look at the question from the point of view of someone who actually wants to learn something about the world, you'll realize that the burden of proof is on the person who is pro-tipping, not con. And bonus points for then saying that *my* viewpoint is the convoluted one.

Perhaps someone may be against tipping on principle because he thinks the casino/cardroom should pay their dealers a better wage so as not to require such a relatively awkward practice?

As far as dealer quality goes, let's just run through a quick common-sense kindergarten economics cram session: Assume everybody in every card room stops tipping instantaneously. What happens? Dealers either a) complain to their boss, or b) quit. The boss does nothing until the situation affects his current or potential business negatively (as would any other businessman). If people were to somehow continue not tipping, the boss would either pay the dealers more (and increase the rake proportionately), or in some other way "require" a gratuity (which is the exact same thing as increasing the rake proportionately). The quality of dealers will not go down to intolerable levels because (again, getting back to simple fingerpaint-and-graham-crackers economics) if they were, players would stop playing at that location, the cardroom would lose business, and they'd take measures to get the quality back up (paying the dealers more for extra training, probably) to get the players back. But hey, common sense is so convoluted - "everybody else is doing it" is much more logical. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

But no, my lot is to STFU because you don't want to hear it, but your opinion comprised of literally nothing more than appeals to popularity and ad hominems is perfectly fine - after all, where else are we to find the fuel with which I am to be "flamed"?

[DeadMoneyOC]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been working at BAllys Poker room for 3 weeks and I've come to my personal observation of who are the best and worst tippers...

1) Young Asian Males (By far the best; Doesn't matter what the pot is..they'll throw 3 or 4 bucks at a time)
2) Mid/Older Males
3) Women
4) Young White Males (By far are the worst, expecially if it's NL)

Thoughts??

[/ QUOTE ]

I played yesterday with this very young asian girl who tipped at least 7$ in everypot. The best was when she won a pot that was probably about 30$ and then pushed half of it back to the dealer! Everyone kinda laughed to themselves and looked at this girl strange(she was cute too!). It got even funnier when this funny guy in his mid-20s won another pot that was about 30$ and jopkingly pushed half of it to the dealer. Then everyone started hurting their lungs from laughing too hard. The girl only flashed the table a smirk and went back to reading her book. Very strange...

I think people in low limit games tip waaay too much though. I think you should tip 1$ for average size pots and 2$ for big pots. I see people tipping 5$ for pots that arent even 10BBs...

[Gramps]

I don't get all the talk about not tipping the dealers handsomely. Everyone knows that if you don't tip the dealers well, they won't give you good cards. I like getting good cards, so I can win more monster pots, and tip the dealers handsomely again. It more than pays for itself when you think about it from a logical perspective...

[Jordan Olsommer]

A perpetual profit machine! Hell yes. My nominee for Post of the Day, and, if I had any say in the matter, a Nobel Prize to boot /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Balt:

I agree that at low limit games which are more tourist oriented, my strict requirements need not apply.

best wishes,
mason

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
An older guy, probably in his 60s, named Chip is working there...

He rakes in more tips than anybody else...

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

(Sorry, inside joke. LOLOLOLOLOLOL!)

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
A new cardroom just opened here. An older guy, probably in his 60s, named Chip is working there as a dealer. Turns out, he dealt in Vegas years and years ago.

He rakes in more tips than anybody else because he keeps the game going in a professional manner and because he's able to carry on a conversation while doing so.

He and I have a standing agreement that he'll tell stories from the old days in Vegas at $1 per. He was telling a few one night and nobody else was taking care of him. So he started whispering the stories to me when I folded. It was pissing off a few of the other players. But Chip just smiled and said "This gentleman is the only one paying to hear the stories. If you'll follow his lead, you'll all get to hear what he's hearing."

Obviously, new dealers won't have those experiences to help build tips. But you can learn from watching the older guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was playing and saw/heard this I woud never tip this dealer. If I was supervising this dealer I would have to have a conversation with him about what is appropiate in the box. THe dealer should not be telling stories, he should not be whispering to a player, and he should not suggest that the players aren't tipping enough.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]

And thanks for telling me to "STFU"

[/ QUOTE ]

Actualy, the "you" in that part of the post was supposed to be the people who try to argue that tipping is bad.

[ QUOTE ]
when, if you want to look at the question from the point of view of someone who actually wants to learn something about the world, you'll realize that the burden of proof is on the person who is pro-tipping, not con. And bonus points for then saying that *my* viewpoint is the convoluted one.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, fine. The onus is on me. You should tip because you're using the services of the dealer and tipping is how they get paid for their services. That's the fact of the matter. Now if you want to argue that this situation should be changed, the onus is on YOU to provide the justification.

[ QUOTE ]
As far as dealer quality goes, let's just run through a quick common-sense kindergarten economics cram session:

[/ QUOTE ]

No, let's not. Like I said, this EXACT thread has already been posted, over and over and over again. Go search and read the old posts.

[ QUOTE ]
But no, my lot is to STFU because you don't want to hear it

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I don't want to hear it, and I wasn't telling YOU to STFU then, but I am now. STFU. We've heard it. And if you go back and READ the old posts, you'd probably be surprised at my position on the "economics" of the situation.

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]
The onus is on me. You should tip because you're using the services of the dealer and tipping is how they get paid for their services. That's the fact of the matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't tip a dealer, the dealer does not stop dealing you cards. If you do not pay for food in a restaurant (which is how the restaurant gets paid for its services), then you get arrested and the restaurant most certainly stops serving you food. If you can't see the difference between these two scenarios, then I really don't know what to say - I guess you'll just have to rely on clever internet chatroom acronyms to be the crux of your arguments from now on.

[bpb]

[ QUOTE ]

The only reasons I can see why people tip dealers are therefore a) not to look cheap in front of the other players (social pressure); and/or b) empathy or pity (arising out of a concern because they realize that dealers rely heavily on tips, in which case that makes for a very interesting contrast - the cold-hearted poker player who'd bust his own grandmother if she got into a pot with him, yet feels compelled to toss a piece of each pot he wins to someone who agreed to work for X an hour on his own volition with the understanding that tips may or may not come).

Any thoughts on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a tipping profession.

Why do you tip the bartender who gives you a PBR but not the cashier at the Dunkin Donuts who gives you your coffee?

Why do you tip the pizza delivery guy, but not the cable TV repairman?

The cardroom pays the dealer minimum wage, and the implicit understanding is that players' tips will bring the total compensation up to a respectable hourly wage.

Personally, I'd rather see the rake raised to $5/pot, give the dealers a good base pay, and eliminate dealer tipping. But as long as they're getting minimum wage, I toss a $1 on every pot I win.

I think it's a good question though, and one that should be able to be asked and discussed with idiots chiming in with "you're a cheapskate".

[goofball]

I don't have a problem with occaisonal talking in the box as long as it doesn't interfere with their dealing.

A quiet, efficient competent dealer is almost exactly as valuble as a dealer with the same level of comptency that talks a bit much.

A dealer that, by talking lowers the quality of the job they are doing? very vrey very minus EV.

[Photoc]

Mason, as a dealer myself, I would appreciate it greatly if I could "average" $1 per hand dealt. If that were the case, I'd make 38-45/hr for the 5.5 or 6 hours I deal. I feel that I run a good game even though it is mostly 4/8 and below and restricted buy in NL.

After talking with some friends at Wynn and other higher end joints, it seems that the lower end players are your more gambling type of tourist that are used to Bj dealers and so on having to talk up their game to make money. I used to do that for a living and can definately recognize the difference. Daily, I hear people complain that the dealers are too quiet and yada yada. But when I'll play 8/16 or 10/20 (never played higher), the game is much better off with a quieter dealer. I'm not saying carry on a conversation about your kids and such but a little good luck, or how is everyone, and maybe answer some questions and such and make the players feel like you're one of them works more to my advantage than anything. But I do know when to just STFU, dummy up and deal! lol

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's a good question though, and one that should be able to be asked and discussed with idiots chiming in with "you're a cheapskate".


[/ QUOTE ]

THANK YOU.

I looked at the other "to tip or not to tip" threads in the B&M forum, and they were all exactly like that - one person would put up an argument against the practice (sometimes well thought-out, sometimes braindead [like the people who don't want to tip but want their prices to stay the same too]), and the overwhelming responses were "douchebag", followed by "cheapskate" and "stiff" (in that order /images/graemlins/tongue.gif). I don't care which side of the fence you fall on, but you can't even discuss the issue in that kind of environment, which is the thing that got to me.

My working hypothesis, though, is that the knee-jerk "just tip and STFU, douchebag" people do such things for the same reason that kids in high school promote the notion that you're only a Real Man if it takes you a lot of beer to get drunk. Meaning, when pressed on the issue, they almost never offer up a rational argument, but instead resort to ganging up with their like-minded friends and just shout you down via some kind of perverted Majority Rule. I can't understand it for the life of me, to be perfectly honest.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I looked at the other "to tip or not to tip" threads in the B&M forum, and they were all exactly like that - one person would put up an argument against the practice (sometimes well thought-out, sometimes braindead [like the people who don't want to tip but want their prices to stay the same too]), and the overwhelming responses were "douchebag", followed by "cheapskate" and "stiff" (in that order /images/graemlins/tongue.gif). I don't care which side of the fence you fall on, but you can't even discuss the issue in that kind of environment, which is the thing that got to me.


[/ QUOTE ]

How about the respondants who explained in plain English why one should tip? Or did you get too bored and tired on your trek to actually read the threads you allegedly found?

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]
How about the respondants who explained in plain English why one should tip? Or did you get too bored and tired on your trek to actually read the threads you allegedly found?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here you go - just for you, the Greatest Hits from this thread (http://tinyurl.com/c2ebh)

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, if you don't tip, you are a loser, in more ways than one!

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm one of those who will brand you cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cause it is expected.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Shut up & tip, thats my attitude. Why bother thinking about it, it will only give you a headache. Happy dealers = better "workplace". Its the cost of doing business, a per-pot addition to the vig. Fair enough eh?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The real difference is that those who do tip are players and those who do not tip are royal douchebags. Other than that, there's no reason to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Stupid freaking stiffs man. You're spreading like a virus.
You funny little $2/4 ESPN & WPT wannabes. You guys kill me.

Heres the profile:
Male
21
White
Trendy
Loud
Drunk
Cheap

Always asking for the cocktail waitress and wearing sunglasses. And now coming to 2+2 to bitch about tokes.

Heres a tip. Go play [censored] video poker. Dont have to tip a soul.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was a particularly choice one, I must say. Followed immediately by this non-sequitur

[ QUOTE ]

If your hourly rate is being decimated by tips, I suggest you learn how to play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

So, what you're saying is that rather than being the young, wet behind the ears no-nothing kid he accused you of being, you're a doucebag entirely without excuse?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Just friggin' tip already and don't add up how much is costs you. Consider it a necessary part of the game. Tipping is completely separate from the rake anyway, so don't lump them in the same category.

The bottom line is don't be a friggin' stiff, that's "bad."

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If you aren't willing to do that,stay home until you grow up.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

All you're going to do is deprive a dealer of some income and come off as an excuse-free douchebag.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your profile of the non-tipping internet punks is spot on accurate.

Every single day I have to say it over and over...

IT'S 2-4, NOT THE WORLD POKER TOUR!

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So if you have to defend yourself after posting a "I think I'll try to rationalize being a stiff" thread, then too friggin' bad for you hoss. Somebody call a whaaaaaaambulance!

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The fact that you make such a big friggen deal about probably less than 1% of your earning just proves my point that you are one of those beligerant tightwads who have had the life sucked out them by the game....

[/ QUOTE ]

I admit, this one is my favorite - I figure, if you're going to go ad hominem, at least go there in style:

[ QUOTE ]

I hope you almost die in a fire.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Ok, a couple things here to point out stiff.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you

* don't care about treating people as you would like to be treated
* have no conscience
* don't mind being thought of as an a-hole

then don't tip if you don't want to.

[/ QUOTE ]

The following quote was particularly deliciously ironic seeing as how a sentence or two before it, the person claimed to be an "academic kind of person" who dutifully weighed all evidence before taking a stance:

[ QUOTE ]
Just give it up, don't be a friggin' stiff, and TIP ALREADY.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
After all, no one knows more about the plight of people working for $2/hour plus tips than someone who buys and sells restaurants like they were tennis shoes.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

It's a good thing you're only claiming to be a poker genius.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Having read every post and absorbed the available information, I have come to the conclusion that you're the [censored], here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Moral of the story: YOU ARE A CLOWN

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

What a douche.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If you hate dealers, tipping, 35 hands per hour, do us all a favor and go back to the internet. Simple as that. Enough of the whining and complaining, just do it. We wont miss you.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are trying to make money playing poker move up to a limit where the rake and tokes are not such a high percentage of the pot or stop bitching...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
So toke good service, and don't if bad, if you're a total stiffinator.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

i cannot believe this is a topic of discussion. if you do not like tipping, stick to online play. this reminds me of the beginning speech by Steve Buschemi in Reservoir Dogs. Just tip 'em!

[/ QUOTE ]


Wow.

Positively brimming with rational argument and scholarly debate!

*edit: by my calculations, the posts from which I quoted here comprised 61% of the 'pro-tipping' (or anti-'no-tipping', I guess) opinions. And that's just the stuff that was obviously asinine! I'm of course not saying that there were no rational arguments (there were a few, on both sides) - what I am saying is that the signal-to-noise ratio in a thread like that is within epsilon of zero.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts??

[/ QUOTE ]

You should become a hot looking female if you want really good tips.

[sirio11]

Very good post Jordan.

Don't expect a good debate with dealers who just want you to tip regardless of how well they're doing its job.

David

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
OK.

I don't want to start a flamewar or anything here (honest!), but I have to ask.

Tipping a waitress is often argued as correct "to insure promptness" or "to insure prompt service" or whatever.

But a dealer??

What's he going to do - give you better cards if you tip him? Or is it going to be like some kind of socially-acceptable extortion where he is more likely to "accidentally" scoop your hand into the muck if you're a bad/non-tipper (sort of like how some people say you should tip waiters/waitresses "or else they'll piss in your food" or something along those lines).

The only reasons I can see why people tip dealers are therefore a) not to look cheap in front of the other players (social pressure); and/or b) empathy or pity (arising out of a concern because they realize that dealers rely heavily on tips, in which case that makes for a very interesting contrast - the cold-hearted poker player who'd bust his own grandmother if she got into a pot with him, yet feels compelled to toss a piece of each pot he wins to someone who agreed to work for X an hour on his own volition with the understanding that tips may or may not come).

Any thoughts on this?

[/ QUOTE ]
tip the dealer for the same reason you tip the waitress

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
tip the dealer for the same reason you tip the waitress

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you tip because SHE's hot and you have a guy dealing to you, that could be construed as something... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I prefer a table full of asians. Tip city.

The young white males, all wpt trained (thanks to the wpt never showing tipping) and internet trained should all be banned from cardrooms till they learn how to tip.

Women are fine with me.

Older men do tip some but they usually bitch more than the tips they give are worth.

al

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
Here you go - just for you, the Greatest Hits from this thread (http://tinyurl.com/c2ebh)

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you hurt yourself hand-picking the douchebag posts while ignoring the ones with actual points?

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
should all be banned from the cardrooms till they learn how to tip

[/ QUOTE ]

This easily the stupidest thing I've read today. Getting tipped is not a fuckign birthright. You do not automatically deserve to get part of my pot.

[47outs]

[ QUOTE ]
OK.

I don't want to start a flamewar or anything here (honest!), but I have to ask.

Tipping a waitress is often argued as correct "to insure promptness" or "to insure prompt service" or whatever.

But a dealer??


[/ QUOTE ]

If you want "to insure prompt service" I suggest tipping the dealers. They don't have to deliver a fast game if they don't want to.


outs

[Jordan Olsommer]

Probably not any more than you hurt yourself by consciously ignoring the end of my post, where I addressed that issue quite clearly. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
Probably not any more than you hurt yourself by consciously ignoring the end of my post, where I addressed that issue quite clearly. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I fell asleep because I was bored to death re-reading the same ****ing BS I read the first time. It would have been better if you had A) searched BEFORE you shot your mouth off and B) kept it to yourself, we've already been through it before, thanks.

Oh, and burying your argument in six tons of garbage that you know nobody wants to read so you can later "spring your trap" with the big AHA! is poor form, nobody is impressed.

PLONK.

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]

Oh, and burying your argument in six tons of garbage that you know nobody wants to read so you can later "spring your trap" with the big AHA! is poor form, nobody is impressed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spring my trap? Big "AHA"??

Dude, what the hell are you talking about?

The entire point of the post was that there was so much garbage there.

What I'm saying is "look, there's six tons of garbage in this thread!" , and you're responding with "that's nice, but showing the six tons of garbage is poor form."

And not for nothing, but I personally thought that someone who responded to "why do people tip dealers?" with "I hope you almost die in a fire" is pretty friggin' hilarious.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
should all be banned from the cardrooms till they learn how to tip

[/ QUOTE ]

This easily the stupidest thing I've read today. Getting tipped is not a fuckign birthright. You do not automatically deserve to get part of my pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

[juanez]

Sheeesh. I found the sarcasm rather humorous.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[juanez]

Just a word of advice, and one thing I have learned over the last few months....don't let the non-tipping stiffs bother you. Tight wads are out there and they will ALWAYS be out there. Be thankful that they are there to keep a game going and be nice to them just like everyone else. If the cheap-o's weren't there and the game broke, you would be getting even less tokes.

I have actually had regular players tip me and then say "here's one more for that guy down there who's been stiffing you". /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[juanez]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I don't want to hear it, and I wasn't telling YOU to STFU then, but I am now. STFU. We've heard it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since we're re-posting others posts.....

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]

I have actually had regular players tip me and then say "here's one more for that guy down there who's been stiffing you".

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that actually seems to me like a very strong argument for tipping that I hadn't seen mentioned before; if you don't tip, and people notice it (like when a guy calls attention to it in the manner that you described), it sends a red alert to the fish, who think "wow, this guy's trying to squeeze out every last penny here - he's definitely not here to just have fun", and quite possibly tighten them up/make them inadvertantly play better, which would definitely be -EV.

Sort of like rooting through a dumpster for chicken or something.

[juanez]

[ QUOTE ]
Now that actually seems to me like a very strong argument for tipping that I hadn't seen mentioned before; if you don't tip, and people notice it (like when a guy calls attention to it in the manner that you described), it sends a red alert to the fish, who think "wow, this guy's trying to squeeze out every last penny here - he's definitely not here to just have fun", and quite possibly tighten them up/make them inadvertantly play better, which would definitely be -EV.

Sort of like rooting through a dumpster for chicken or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't an argument for tipping. It was me sharing my own experiences while dealing to a newer dealer, the OP, not you.

You haven't even ever played B&M, right?

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]



It wasn't an argument for tipping. It was me sharing my own experiences while dealing to a newer dealer, the OP, not you.

You haven't even ever played B&M, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow....at least you didn't tell me you hope that I almost die in a fire, I guess.

[juanez]

<sigh>

I would rather you live unharmed, as long as you're propping up my table while spewing chips, thereby keeping the other toking players there.

Don't forget your shades and iPod. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[mosch]

[ QUOTE ]
And not for nothing, but I personally thought that someone who responded to "why do people tip dealers?" with "I hope you almost die in a fire" is pretty friggin' hilarious.

[/ QUOTE ]

That comment had nothing to do with tipping.

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And not for nothing, but I personally thought that someone who responded to "why do people tip dealers?" with "I hope you almost die in a fire" is pretty friggin' hilarious.

[/ QUOTE ]

That comment had nothing to do with tipping.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:

Do you know me?

I'm 42 [censored] years old you [censored] [censored]. I started playing this game before most in this forum were born.

Btw, you [censored] dipshit, I have been in the service business all my life having owned/sold 4 restaurants so don't lecture me about tipping you [censored] piece of crap. Try to be a professional and take the good with the bad. That is what I always told my servers because nothing pissed me off more than some douche waitress bitching about a tip.

Don't bother responding because I don't give a [censored] what a loser dealer from Vegas thinks so [censored] off!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I hope you almost die in a fire.


[/ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, it wasn't much of an intellectual discourse - you responded to a brainless ad hominem (which wasn't addressed to you in the first place) with an equally brainless ad hominem - congratulations, I guess.

[mosch]

[ QUOTE ]

You're right, it wasn't much of an intellectual discourse - you responded to a brainless ad hominem (which wasn't addressed to you in the first place) with an equally brainless ad hominem - congratulations, I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

The comment was not an ad hominem argument.

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You're right, it wasn't much of an intellectual discourse - you responded to a brainless ad hominem (which wasn't addressed to you in the first place) with an equally brainless ad hominem - congratulations, I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

The comment was not an ad hominem argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

Google is your friend! (http://www.google.com/search?q=ad+hominem)

And here's why! (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm)

[mosch]

[ QUOTE ]
Google is your friend! (http://www.google.com/search?q=ad+hominem)

And here's why! (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for verifying that my statement was not an ad hominem argument.

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Google is your friend! (http://www.google.com/search?q=ad+hominem)

And here's why! (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for verifying that my statement was not an ad hominem argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow.

This is a new record.

First sentence on second link:

" The person presenting an argument is attacked instead of the
argument itself."

That's exactly what you did.

It doesn't matter one whit whether or not you were intending to debate with the fellow, it's an ad hominem. The "debate" essentially went like this: "I dont know why I tip." "You're a chris moneymaker wannabe stiff". (ad hominem #1) "You [censored] [censored] I'm 85 [censored] years old and I have an enormous [censored]!" (ad hominem #2, in response to ad hominem #1) Then you: "I hope you almost die in a fire." (ad hominem #3, in response to #2)

You don't have to explicitly say "I think your argument is incorrect because you smell" for your statement to qualify as an ad hominem.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
The entire point of the post was that there was so much garbage there.

What I'm saying is "look, there's six tons of garbage in this thread!" , and you're responding with "that's nice, but showing the six tons of garbage is poor form.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy, you really are a f***ing moron. WE ALREADY KNOW that thread is full of garbage. WE ALREADY READ IT. Just because it's new to you doesn't mean we want to see it all dragged out again. We believe you. You don't have to prove that there is six tons of garbage by reproducing it all.

Why not start a thread in the internet gambling forum documenting all of the retarded "intarweb pokar is rigged" posts? Do you think people would appreciate your hard work? Do you think you would be providing a valuable service for all of us mouth-breathers that have been living in a cave and weren't aware of the people that post this garbage?

[Jordan Olsommer]

chesspain apparently didn't know it, since that's precisely what he disputed (in response to which I made that post).

It would help if you read the thread and made the slightest attempt to understand what people are talking about before you ramble on.

[mosch]

[ QUOTE ]

" The person presenting an argument is attacked instead of the
argument itself."

That's exactly what you did


[/ QUOTE ]

It was a response to the poster's fountain of vitriol. It was meant to be a darkly humorous way to defang his tirade and derail the personal attacks, by taking them to a cartoonish level.

It had nothing at all to do with his opinions about tipping, neither directly nor indirectly.

I hope this thread has an accident while freeclimbing.

[accountant71]

I have been dealing more than five years and here are my thoughts. In general, asians toke the best with older guys second. As far as the guy saying that it makes sense to tip a waitress because she will give you better service, but not a dealer because the dealer cant give you better cards, here is what I think. If you play regularly and dont toke dealers, it will cost you money in the long run. Dealers do double rakes and take two jackpot dollars. I know a stiff who lost almost 2K last year just from one dealer doing this to him. Its that serious. Last week in 20-40 game, there was a huge pot that got down to heads up. There was a good toker and a stone stiff. At the end, the good toker bets and while the stiff is thinking about it, the good toker throws his hand in face down, thinking that no one called. I returned the hand to the good toker and informed him that there was still one person yet to call. The stiff got infuriated, as he should have, but I told the floor that he asked for the cards back, which he didnt. Floor concluded it was a live hand. Stiff called, stiff lost, next case. $900 pot. Think about it.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Dealers do double rakes and take two jackpot dollars. I know a stiff who lost almost 2K last year just from one dealer doing this to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is indefensible, I don't care how big of a dick a guy is.

[Photoc]

Well I can see this thread went to hell. Just another tipping turned into a pissing for distance thread.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dealers do double rakes and take two jackpot dollars. I know a stiff who lost almost 2K last year just from one dealer doing this to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is indefensible, I don't care how big of a dick a guy is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's bordering on racketeering and extortion. Tip or I'll steal your money and give it to someone else. If I saw a dealer doing that, even if they were only doing it when stiffs dragged a pot, I'd bust their ass without a second thought. That said, I'm sure it does happen.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
chesspain apparently didn't know it, since that's precisely what he disputed (in response to which I made that post).

It would help if you read the thread and made the slightest attempt to understand what people are talking about before you ramble on.

[/ QUOTE ]

You obviously don't know anything about the internet. Post a LINK to the thread (which you did), not six thousand quotes. If he has the link he can read it himself, and we don't have to wade through SIX MILLION POSTS WE ALREADY READ (I keep repeating this) to see the one line of "original" thought you added at the very end. There's NO REASON to reproduce all of that garbage. None.

BTW, I take back calling you a moron. Obviously, *I* am the moron because I keep reading and responding to your retarded posts.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope this thread has an accident while freeclimbing.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Toro]

[ QUOTE ]
You probably won't get to experience this at Bally's. But, tipping gets worse the higher in limits you deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I was at the Bellagio in February a player at my table(low limit nlhe) said to the dealer "I'll bet you wish you were dealing up there instead(while pointing to the high limit area where Phil Ivey and the boys were playing).

The dealing shook his head no and I said "because they're lousy tippers, right?" and he nodded yes.

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
chesspain apparently didn't know it, since that's precisely what he disputed (in response to which I made that post).

It would help if you read the thread and made the slightest attempt to understand what people are talking about before you ramble on.

[/ QUOTE ]

You obviously don't know anything about the internet. Post a LINK to the thread (which you did), not six thousand quotes. If he has the link he can read it himself, and we don't have to wade through SIX MILLION POSTS WE ALREADY READ (I keep repeating this) to see the one line of "original" thought you added at the very end. There's NO REASON to reproduce all of that garbage. None.

BTW, I take back calling you a moron. Obviously, *I* am the moron because I keep reading and responding to your retarded posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus christ.

You know, I tried to be at least somewhat civil, but at this point I'm convinced you have a learning disability.

chesspain said "I'm sure there were no rational arguments in the threads you ALLEGEDLY READ /images/graemlins/shocked.gif" and you're suggesting I rebut this by saying "Au contrair! I did in fact read this thread, and to prove it here is a LINK! Click on it and your browser will TAKE YOU RIGHT THERE! QED!"

My friend, you are about as sharp as a sack of wet mice.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus christ.

You know, I tried to be at least somewhat civil, but at this point I'm convinced you have a learning disability.

chesspain said "I'm sure there were no rational arguments in the threads you ALLEGEDLY READ /images/graemlins/shocked.gif" and you're suggesting I rebut this by saying "Au contrair! I did in fact read this thread, and to prove it here is a LINK! Click on it and your browser will TAKE YOU RIGHT THERE! QED!"

My friend, you are about as sharp as a sack of wet mice.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are the one that has a learning disability. REPOSTING SIX HUNDRED QUOTES is unnecessary and antisocial. You are effectively punishing everyone that reads the thread because YOU and possibly ONE OTHER PERSON didn't read all that [censored] the first time. Think about how inefficient it is for every f***tard that joins a conversation late to go back and repeat everything that had already been said before the conversation can continue. There's NO justification for it. It makes the entire thread longer than necesary, it makes your own points less likely to be read, it pisses everyone off. You don't have to PROVE to anyone that you read the other stuff. Welcome to the internet, shut the f*** up and listen until you figure out how it works.

[sucka]

[ QUOTE ]
Mason,

As much as I respect your opinion I have to disagree...At the lower limits (Which are Bally's main games), 98 percent of the people are NOT going to tip based on how a dealer runs a game...

[/ QUOTE ]

I beg to differ. I often play in LL games when I visit Vegas with my friends and I'll frequently tip a dealer even if I didn't win a pot if he ran the game well, kept his mouth shut, and dealt fast. The best part about this kind of tipping is that the dealer knows exactly what I'm tipping him/her for and hopefully that reinforces that they are doing a great job and they should stick to whatever it is that they are doing.

That said, not many people do that though - at least not that I've seen.

[Peter]

[ QUOTE ]
If you want "to insure prompt service" I suggest tipping the dealers. They don't have to deliver a fast game if they don't want to.


[/ QUOTE ]
Aren't tips meant to work the other way around? If someone wants a tip, he/she should deliver prompt service no matter what their line of work is.

I think it used to be this way, but somewhere along the line people starting expecting to get tips and when they don't they figure that the person that didn't tip them doesn't deserve prompt service.

I think they do have to deliver a fast game, even if they don't want to because that's what they're paid for. Unfortunately, because of "expecting to get tips", bosses will also expect that their employees get tipped and to increase their profit they renamed the tips "to be part of their income" so they could decrease the pay which basically means that a lot of people actually get underpaid.
Sorry for the long sentence.

In my opinion tips should never be seen as part of your income by whoever pays your salary, but try telling the bosses that.

Maybe the casino system in the Netherlands isn't so bad. The casino's are property of the government, with all the profit going to the state, and the employees actually get a pretty decent paycheck, even without tips.

Peter

[adios]

Someone not tipping doesn't equate to committing robbery. Generally speaking I like dealers and I do tip when I play in a B&M place. Attitudes like yours convinces me even more that playing online is far superior to playing at a B&M place. Good god if you like how much tip you, you feel it's justified to rip me off? Shame on you.

[goofball]

how about they deliver a fast game because it's their [censored] job?

how is it not extortion to say "pay me or i slowdown the game"

How would we react if macdonalds had a jar labeled "put money in here or we take an extra 10 minutes to prepare your order"

when i was teaching gymnastics should i ignorre the kids of parents that didn't give me extra money? should a plumber [censored] up your toilet because you don't give him extra money? the list goes on and on and on.

[PukaPlaya]

[ QUOTE ]
I think people in low limit games tip waaay too much though. I think you should tip 1$ for average size pots and 2$ for big pots. I see people tipping 5$ for pots that arent even 10BBs...

[/ QUOTE ]

I tip one dollar on any pot I win that sees a flop/turn for the most part.

I usually play 2-5 NL or 5-10 limit if that makes a difference. I don't see why I should tip more than a buck but that's just me.

[Timer]

It can be easily proven that low-limit players who tip $1 or more per pot are toking off most of their profits. (Assuming they are winning players.)

[Peter]

Seems to me we agree on this issue.

Peter

[Malachii]

[ QUOTE ]
Boy, you really are a f***ing moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can assure you that Jordan is absolutely NOT a moron. I don't understand why he's getting flamed for asking why people tip. Isn't the impulse to question authority and convention one of the prerequisites for living an independant and intellectualy satisfying life? In fact, I dare say that the impulse to question convention is what inspires the vast majority of successful gamblers and poker players on this forum.

And for the record, I'm a young white male who tips very generously. It's good karma. Sharing prosperity leads to more prosperity.

As a specific example of this, I remember one 2/4 hand at Commerce where my opponent had two pair and I had an overpair. I didn't realize that the board had paired and he had been counterfeited until a few moments after I had already mucked my cards face down (but they hadn't been returned into the pile of cards.) As soon as I flipped them back up, the dealer awarded me the pot despite the other player's objections. Had I been a tightwad that never tipped, I have no doubt that I would not have been awarded this pot.

Like I said, good karma.

[goofball]

right, i wasn't meaning to object to waht you were saying. your post just got me going so that was the point in the thread at which i chose to reply :-)

[PukaPlaya]

Thank you.

If you get a buck per pot be happy or else learn a real skill.

Jeebus. Why is it that people think they are entitled to a free ride in this country??

GW included.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Boy, you really are a f***ing moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can assure you that Jordan is absolutely NOT a moron. I don't understand why he's getting flamed for asking why people tip. Isn't the impulse to question authority and convention one of the prerequisites for living an independant and intellectualy satisfying life? In fact, I dare say that the impulse to question convention is what inspires the vast majority of successful gamblers and poker players on this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with questioning. He isn't getting flamed for asking the question. When he asked the question, it was suggested that he search and read the four million previous threads on this topic. He then turned into a big douchebag and spammed all of the posts he read back into this thread to demonstrate that he actually read them, then got indignant when it was pointed out that this is rude, moronic behavior. THAT is why he's getting flamed.

[Ray Zee]

the dealer does not have the authority to award you the pot nor take it away. the floorman makes that decision if called. once you turn up your hand you call the floor if the decision isnt what you want. same for the other guy. but in all good karma pays off.

[47outs]

[ QUOTE ]
how about they deliver a fast game because it's their [censored] job?

how is it not extortion to say "pay me or i slowdown the game"

How would we react if macdonalds had a jar labeled "put money in here or we take an extra 10 minutes to prepare your order"

when i was teaching gymnastics should i ignorre the kids of parents that didn't give me extra money? should a plumber [censored] up your toilet because you don't give him extra money? the list goes on and on and on.

[/ QUOTE ]

The dealers job isn't to deal a fast game. Whether they get 15hands/hr or 30, there are no reprocussions, that is simply how they want to deal.

McDonalds can be slow sometimes, food quality (though terrible anyway) can be low. If you tipped the people at McDonalds your experience would probably be that much better.

If you tipped your plumber you may get your pipes spit shined instead of some half ass job.

In gymnastics (wtf?) if a parent payed you extra to ensure their kid gets some special treatment, whats wrong with that.

Some parents buy their kids way onto competitive sporting teams with "additional funding".

Whats your point again?

outs