Concerning monkeys

[johnnybeef]

ok so this one is a 33....

blinds 50/100 and moving up when im in the blinds
utg 1500
hero 1000
button 800
SB 1900
BB 2600

folded to hero, who holds kc8c....easy push imo. bb thinks and thinks and thinks and calls and i berate him /images/graemlins/mad.gif do i have a right to be mad when a monkey makes a terrible call like this and knocks me out even though he is slightly ahead?

edit: bb calls with a3

[The Yugoslavian]

Why berate?

Just PROFIT BITCH!!

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAMUAHAHAHHAHAHAHBWAHAHAHHAHAHAHA HA...

Yugoslav

[Sykes]

What did bb have? 55?

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Why berate?

Just PROFIT BITCH!!

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAMUAHAHAHHAHAHAHBWAHAHAHHAHAHAHA HA...

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

cuz getting busted by a monkey who calls with hands like a3 or 22 in this situation makes me (a very mild mannered guy) absolutely irate /images/graemlins/mad.gif. kinda paradoxical eh?

[Eric Draven]

Misread post.

It's normal to be mad, but in the long run it makes you happy

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Really it depends on your table image, etc.

It might not have been the best call in the world, but if he read you as stealing or having a small pocket pair, I'd say it wasn't a horrible call because he had 2 suited overcards, and even against a small pocket pair the odds are about 49/51 (a coin flip).

Not a great call, not one I would regularly make, but depending on the read, it might not have been horrible

[/ QUOTE ]

i had 2 suited overs, he had a3 off.

[DDH]

And if you'd won the hand, this post would be about how great it is to have people call your bets with hands like that and pay you off. He did what you wanted him to, you just lost the hand. You aren't going to win every hand of poker you play.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
And if you'd won the hand, this post would be about how great it is to have people call your bets with hands like that and pay you off. He did what you wanted him to, you just lost the hand. You aren't going to win every hand of poker you play.

[/ QUOTE ]

No he didn't, when you have K high, you DO NOT want to be called by A3.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
And if you'd won the hand, this post would be about how great it is to have people call your bets with hands like that and pay you off. He did what you wanted him to, you just lost the hand. You aren't going to win every hand of poker you play.

[/ QUOTE ]

i wanted him to fold.

[lastchance]

One of the things that you start learning about SNGs is that you ALMOST ALWAYS want people to fold. If I have AK, I still want people to fold in situations like these. Only QQ-AA like getting called.

[Eihli]

Is this really an easy push? Seems marginal to me.

[lastchance]

That was the second thing I'm thinking. From CO, I probably fold with 10x BB here.

[Phoenix1010]

http://img218.echo.cx/img218/8972/braphael6vx.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
Ooh ooh I have an ace!!!

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
http://img218.echo.cx/img218/8972/braphael6vx.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
Ooh ooh I have an ace!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

POTY!!!!!

[johnnybeef]

yes. it is that easy. my fold equity was as high as it was going to be (or at least it should have been under the assumption that the bb wouldnt call with any ace), and i was about to lose 300 chips. when i go out, i go out swinging.

[JP Rocks]

After you berated him, did he reply with "Its better to be lucky than good?"...

I'm not sure what ICM experts would say about this, but he is getting 1:1.3 for his money, and will still be in decent shape if he loses. Knowing you have only 10BB, he may have seen a push as a sign of weakness. Feel free to flame away, but I dont see too much wrong with the way he played the hand.

You however pushed when the best you could hope for (if called) was a coinflip, and you lost the coinflip...

[Jman28]

The call was definitely a bad one. You have to remember, even if he knows that the hero would push K8s, if that's at the bottom end of the pushing range, A3o isn't looking very good against that range.

[ QUOTE ]

You however pushed when the best you could hope for (if called) was a coinflip, and you lost the coinflip...

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually don't like the push much, but this is bad reasoning. He knows that he isn't in good shape when called. The point of the all-in is all of the equity gained by picking up the blinds when players fold... not the advantage you will (not) have when called.

[ QUOTE ]
Feel free to flame away, but I dont see too much wrong with the way he played the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not looking to flame you. I do reccommend however, that you read these forums a lot before playing many more tourneys. You're logic shows a huge lack of understanding of tournament theory.

[KingDan]

Would you have played AA/KK this way?

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
The call was definitely a bad one. You have to remember, even if he knows that the hero would push K8s, if that's at the bottom end of the pushing range, A3o isn't looking very good against that range.

[ QUOTE ]

You however pushed when the best you could hope for (if called) was a coinflip, and you lost the coinflip...

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually don't like the push much, but this is bad reasoning. He knows that he isn't in good shape when called. The point of the all-in is all of the equity gained by picking up the blinds when players fold... not the advantage you will (not) have when called.

[ QUOTE ]
Feel free to flame away, but I dont see too much wrong with the way he played the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not looking to flame you. I do reccommend however, that you read these forums a lot before playing many more tourneys. You're logic shows a huge lack of understanding of tournament theory.

[/ QUOTE ]

a suited K8 is the absolute bottom of what i would have pushed with in this spot.

[Moonsugar]

Looks like you messed up on your assumptions.

If you loosen your raising standards the ONLY way to combat it in my BB is to loosen my calling standards. Looks like he had you figured.

[Phoenix1010]

I'm getting horribly off topic lately. Here's an actual answer:

You're going to have to realize that it's your job to adjust to their play. They are playing poorly, they are begging to give you their money. It's up to you to figure out how to do that. K8s is 58% against a random hand, this doesn't make the push necessarily wrong, I haven't done any other calculations, but you should know already that your opponent is a calling station, and you should factor this into your decision. Of course you can't always get a rock solid read on your opponent, but if by level 4 you can't tell who the calling stations are, this is a lapse in your game. You do not want him to start playing better, you want him to keep making stupid calls. It's on you to exploit that. Do not tap the glass.

-Phoenix

[johnnybeef]

my point in posting this hand is because there are plenty of people who will call pushes with marginal hands in situations similar like this. this is something that i am struggling with a little bit. in a ring game when someone makes a terrible play you profit...in a sng, when someone makes a terrible play similar to the one that i outlined, you dont. this is something that i am having a little bit of difficulty with and i would like to see a semi-intellegent discussion formed about this topic.

[JP Rocks]

Thank you for the constructive comments.

To a certain degree, I was playing devils advocate, especially seeing as the original poster felt the need to complain about getting called an losing. I probably would have folded both hands either way.

At the same time, however, I know I have problems in my game, especially with a medium stack around 5-6 handed when the blinds are 75-150 or 100-200. My placing distribution does show that 5th and 6th are my bad spots, combining for about 50% of my losses. I do have a 15/8/10/10 1-2-3-4 distribution, so when I get over the hump I usually do pretty well (sample size of around 500, so read into it what you like). I have a pretty good handle on early play and ITM/heads up play, but could use a hand on middle stuff. If you could recommend any good threads on folding equity and pushing at those levels, let me know. I might do a search myself anyhoo...

[johnnybeef]

even if he knew i was pushing with what i did, calling with a3 is wrong

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
my point in posting this hand is because there are plenty of people who will call pushes with marginal hands in situations similar like this. this is something that i am struggling with a little bit. in a ring game when someone makes a terrible play you profit...in a sng, when someone makes a terrible play similar to the one that i outlined, you dont. this is something that i am having a little bit of difficulty with and i would like to see a semi-intellegent discussion formed about this topic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this post. I'll kick off the discussion.

Four simple points:
1. Know your opponents. Like I said, you should know who the calling stations are by this point in the game.
2. Against said calling stations, keep the pot small (or fold) when you have a less than premium hand. Value bet more often, but smaller. When the blinds are too big to keep the pot small, but not big enough to have a very big overlay, do not play marginal hands against them. You have no FE, you're playing by the strength of your hand alone.
3. When you do have a premium hand, ram and jam against these guys. This is where they double you up, it's what they're waiting to do all day. They live to double you up.
4. Wait until the blinds go up. When the blinds are huge, it will be much easier to isolate the calling station, and get into a probable coinflip or 60/40 with a large bonus. You want to make sure you're a favorite here, since you're going to get called. Push those pairs and A's and K's.

There's a ton more to the discussion, and I'd be happy if someone disagreed with my reasoning here. I think this is a good start.

-Phoenix

[fluorescenthippo]

easy fold imo. so you shouldnt be mad because you both made mistakes

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
If you could recommend any good threads on folding equity and pushing at those levels, let me know. I might do a search myself anyhoo...


[/ QUOTE ]

Check out the visitor histories at teamfu.freeshell.org (http://teamfu.freeshell.org).

Also, if/when $75 isn't too much for you, I'd reccommend getting Eastbay's SNG program at http://www.sitngo-analyzer.com/

Good luck.

[Moonsugar]

No, it isn't.