KK & AA hand. I thought they were interesting

[AdamL]

Sorry, not much to say about reads. I just sat down and on a new machine, so no PT or PV either. I will say the table is generally loose. (As you will see). I had been geting good raising hands earlier in the orbit so I may have the image of a loose aggressive player, myself.

#1

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 (poster) checks, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

River: (16.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

#2

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds.

River: (14.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero folds...

[Qwijibo]

Hand one is fine.
Hand two: there's pretty much no way to really protect your hand here. No one's folding to your bet, and you can't check-raise for sure (one person to act behind you).

I think I would play these the same way.

[MrWookie47]

I bet the river in hand 1. Hand 2 is fine.

[iNsChris]

bet river in hand 1 due to position.

FOld in hand two is ok, Prob beat by flush most times and might be reraised.

Good stuff.

[marchron]

<font color="red">WARNING</font>: 2+2 newbie here. If I'm wrong, be gentle; if I'm right, it was an accident, I swear.

You might want to bet in Hand 1 if it gets a weak-tight player with A/images/graemlins/club.gif/3/images/graemlins/club.gif to fold. With no reads, though, you can't know that, plus you might be check-raised by something like A/images/graemlins/spade.gif/7/images/graemlins/spade.gif. If you have the best hand, you might earn three bets, but it's just as likely that whatever they were calling with either got wiped out by the river ace or helped out by the river ace. I'd take the free showdown and call it a hand.

Hand 2 . . . eesh. Even calling two cold, you're getting better than 8-1, but UTG waking up screams "I hit my flush" and BB might just reraise, in which case UTG would cap and you're looking at two cold again. I'd probably call, but that's because I'm a weenie who couldn't bear to let go of my precious aces.

[Cris]

OP said the table was generally loose. Hand 1: The pot is good sized, and I don't think A/images/graemlins/club.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gif will fold before the river with four to the flush. I don't think an ace will fold the river to one bet either with that pot. I do agree on betting the river for value.

[@bsolute_luck]

i'd play them both the same.

[adsman]

For all of you who said bet the river for value, what would be your plan if it was check-raised? BB screams busted flush draw, but it could have been the Ace high draw.

[Cris]

Good point. It depends a little on who check-raised I guess. If BB did it, and MP1 and MP2 both fold, I would probably call. If either MP1 or MP2 calls 2 cold I'm not calling. If MP2 check-raises with more than one caller he looks like he has the best hand, and I'm probably not calling. But to be honest I'm not quite sure what to do, the pot is pretty big.

[moot]

I'd bet the river in hand one. Easy value bet. The river card didn't bring in flush or a new straight, and even if somehow has an ace they are very likely to simply call. The hero has played this hand very strongly (and correctly) up to this point, and I think most people will be far too afraid something like a set to try for a check-raise. I'd be much more worried if they had simply bet out the river.

Very very easy value bet IMO. If check-raised I'm calling here.

[Phlebas]

Hand #1 - I think I would play the same, but then berate myself for not value betting the river when they all show a pair of jacks or nines.

Hand #2 - with the benefit of hindsight there may just be a case for checking the flop and waiting to raise the turn. If you are up against a hand like QcTc then you only have about 25% or so equity so your flop betting only earns you around 1 BB. At best it's earning you around 1.5BB so that's what you are potentially losing by not betting (no one with anything is folding so you won't get any folding equity here). You aren't worried about overcards and if a club hits on the turn then you can fold if there is heavy betting ahead of you. OTOH, if the turn is a blank and one of the other players bets then you can raise which would leave the field facing two big bets (they've still got the odds to call a flush draw but they may fold if weak) or, if say BB bets and the others call then you are trapping them for another big bet plus your equity is now higher than on the flop. I think this would easily be worth more than the 1.5BB you lose by not betting the flop. I therefore think it is probably +EV to wait until the turn.

That said, I'm pretty sure I would actually play it the same as you...

[marchron]

This is probably a dumb newb question, but how can betting with K/K in Hand 1 be considered a "value bet" when any ace will call and these donks are just the sort of people who'd call bets with a dry ace and pray to spike it?

If you could conceivably get a weak ace to drop it'd be worth the attempt, but they probably won't; indeed the likelihood of being check-raised is probably greater than that.

If it were guaranteed that all of them would call then Hero only has to win one time in four to be +EV. But I can't see that happening: anyone who can't beat K/K also can't beat any ace and unless they're extreme calling stations, they'll dump it to save a bet. But anyone with an ace will take the pot and a bet Hero didn't have to lose.

If he were second or third to act I could almost see it, but he's being given the opportunity for a free showdown on a silver platter. I can't see why he shouldn't take it.

[crumpentunt]

I agree completely with marchron, i think betting the river in hand 1 is throwing money away.

[Jaran]

Because people will call w/any piece of the board

-Jaran

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, BB calls.

River: (10.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

Results:
Hero has Kc Kh (two pair, kings and nines).
MP2 has 8s Tc (two pair, nines and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 12.25 BB.

[marchron]

Well, that's why I'm a newb.

Wonder what the folders had.

[CourtJester]

Hand 1: Looks fine, checkign the river is fine even specially against 3 other players that coulda have waited to c/r your river bet since u were the aggressor, nh
Hand 2: I dont think ur winning 1 in ten here with 2 ppl betting the flush draw, seems like a fine fold, nh aswell