A nice twist

[Clarkmeister]

40-80. 3 crappy limpers from EP, EMP and MP to a good player on the button who raises. Fairly broad range of hands, but nothing dumb. I call in the SB with KdQh, BB calls. 6 to the flop for 6BBs.

Flop: Kh 9s 8s. Checked to button who bets, I checkraise, BB, EP and EMP coldcall, MP folds, button calls. 5 to the turn for 11BBs.

Turn: Ad. I bet, BB folds, EP calls, EMP calls, button raises, my turn.

[JihadOnTheRiver]

fold. what else?

[Turning Stone Pro]

I'd have folded pre-flop.

I would have checked and folded the turn. Your hand can't be good at this point. Furthermore, 2 of your potential outs are spades, and therefore suspect.

TSP

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd have folded pre-flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

No can do in this spot. He's raising in that spot with lots of hands that are dominated by KQ. Plus I get the ole discount to call. On the button I'd consider 3-betting.

[Turning Stone Pro]

I'm not following you. What hands could a good player raise 3 (albeit sub-par) limpers with that KQo dominates? I love playing it the way you did when he doesnt raise pre-flop, but he did. I just think he is so much more likely to have AJs, AK, AQ, ATs, 77-AA, etc., as opposed to a hand you dominate like QJ, KT, KJ, K9, TJ, etc.

TSP

[goofball]

How could anyone consider folding preflop here?

This situaiton would be a lot more interseting heads up against the good player I think.

I think it's a fold not because of the good player but because of the crappy ones. First, aces are just hte kind of hand crappy players like to limp with. You are definietly Ax of spades now, and both crappy playesr called you on the A turn with the preflop raiser still yet to act. Even though one of them has a flush draw, what can we put the other one on that we are beating?

Also, we only have to figure out if the limpers beat the tiems the button doesn't. He could have hit his 3 outer, or he could have had us over a barrel the whole time.

If either the button, or BOTH the limpers turned over hands we beat, I think it swings to a call. Between the potential hands for all 3 players I think it's a fold.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
as opposed to a hand you dominate like QJ, KT, KJ, K9, TJ, etc.

TSP

[/ QUOTE ]

Suited, he'd raise all these hands.

I'm really only concerned about AA-QQ, AK and AQ. That's it. That's a small subset of his range here, I have the SB so it costs less to see the flop, and I get a chance to play against 3 live ones. And generally, I try not to play like a donkey postflop so I don't think I'm going to get into too much trouble. Sorta. Usually.

[elindauer]

Hi Clarkmeister,

The preflop call seems close but ok to me, owing to your discount in the SB as you point out.

On the turn, you're getting huge odds to continue, so even if you know you're up against an ace and a spade draw, you still have to at least call. It looks very unlikely that it will be raised behind you, so my count you're getting about 18:1 to call. Easy easy call.

Should you 3-bet? I don't think so. It looks too likely that you are behind, and I don't think you can take this down unimproved with a 3-bet. Bad players aren't folding AQ here, so you can't clean up any outs. Just call the turn and hope to improve.

Good luck.
Eric

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, you're getting huge odds to continue, so even if you know you're up against an ace and a spade draw, you still have to at least call. It looks very unlikely that it will be raised behind you, so my count you're getting about 18:1 to call. Easy easy call.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the chance that I'm drawing dead? The PFR raising all those players is a pretty strong move, one that screams "slowplay" more than "I made an ace", no?

[Turning Stone Pro]

Eric, I advocated checking the turn from Clark's spot, in light of A. Yours is an opinion I respect greatly. What would you do?

TSP

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
fold. what else?

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting 16:1 immediately and likely 18:1 after the two bad players behind him call, you need to be very sure you are drawing dead before you can fold. I don't see anything like that here, as the button can hold AJ, AT, a middle suited ace perhaps, maybe QJs...

With the overlay you are getting for the times you are drawing live, you should call.

Good luck.
Eric

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold. what else?

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting 16:1 immediately and likely 18:1 after the two bad players behind him call, you need to be very sure you are drawing dead before you can fold. I don't see anything like that here, as the button can hold AJ, AT, a middle suited ace perhaps, maybe QJs...

With the overlay you are getting for the times you are drawing live, you should call.

Good luck.
Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget that I have no implied odds, but the fact that I lose an extra bet when I hit and it's not good really slashes my effective odds, especially considering the likelihood that spades are out against me.

[rory]

Preflop it is an easy call. I don't get why people think a good player has to have you dominated here. The flop check-raise is of course correct. I guess the turn call hinges on what he would have bet the flop with and now raised the turn with,

He would have bet the flop with JT suited probably, since he is open ended. Also he would have bet with two spades, but the only sort of spades he has at like JsTs or QsTs or AsKs or AsJs, that sort of thing. Not two random spades. However once he fails to 3 bet the flop, his likelihood of holding of spades goes down a bit-- does he know enough to 3 bet spades here? It's a 5 bet cap where you are, maybe he has spades and doesn't want the other players to get raised out if you make it 4. So it's not 100% he would raise with spades and a gutshot or an overcard here.

But he did raise you on the turn. So he doesn't have JT and doesn't have two spades like QsJs. The only hands we are really afraid of are AK, KK and AA on this board. But he doesn't have KK because probably he would have 3-bet the flop and he doesn't have AA for the same reason or AK for the same reason. There is a small chance he was waiting to see if the turn was spade before raising with these hands, however, so we can't discount them entirely. So what could he have that he just calls the flop raise and raises the turn?

I think his most likely holding is A/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif or A/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif, and now he has top pair plus a spade draw. He could also have KK or AA or AK and decided to play it weird. But it seems far more likely, maybe 60-70% he has those two spade hands and not one of those other hands you are drawing dead to. Getting 16-1 and likely 18-1 I think you have an easy call and an easy check-fold on the river unimproved.

[mike l.]

wow i fold that preflop every time and i dont think it's close. i hate being out of position in big pots with unsuited big cards, liable to be dominated. i think it's a clearcut -EV and things only get worse when the board comes as it did, the pot gets big and youre tested on the turn. and im not being results oriented, gabe and i were just joking around last night on the phone about this exact sort of thing, how errors compound.

that said, you need to call the turn and hope to hit one of your very few outs, and once you do pray you werent drawing dead. pot's too big to do anything else.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
wow i fold that preflop every time and i dont think it's close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get real. See my response to TSP.

[Lawrence Ng]

I choose to muck here. It's a tough laydown, but I do it. It looks very likely that the button was looking for the opportunity to raise the turn instead to trap for an extra big bet from all other hands.

Lawrence

[mike l.]

"Get real."

im dead serious. i see what youre saying but that doesnt matter. another problem is what the limpers have and how tenacious they will be postflop. there's no value in playing that hand in that spot. change it to 30-60 or 15-30 and youre fine i guess.

ask gabe and if he says he'd play that there he's lying. in fact ill call him right now.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
another problem is what the limpers have

[/ QUOTE ]

They have garbage. Duh.

[mike l.]

gabe just said he folds but it's not that big a deal if you call.

told you so.

[mike l.]

"They have garbage. Duh."

if button's hand range is so wide (J9s? really? and he's good?) then why not just 3 bet since your hand is clearly best.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
"They have garbage. Duh."

if button's hand range is so wide (J9s? really? and he's good?) then why not just 3 bet since your hand is clearly best.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about it. I would've if suited.

Raising 3 retards from the button with J9s is hardly a bad play mike.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
gabe just said he folds

[/ QUOTE ]

Gabe lies. But that's ok.

[mike l.]

"Gabe lies."

yeah i know that's why i specifically didnt tell him "clark just posted that it's right to call w/ KQo in the sb blah blah blah" because then he wouldve definitely said "oh yeah that's an easy call".

[mike l.]

"Raising 3 retards from the button with J9s is hardly a bad play mike."

i, like most players here, am an intermediate player. i need to be encouraged to not play, let alone raise with, J9s. ever. or play KQo from the sb for a raise.

[rory]

I never, ever thought I would say this:

mike, you play too tight. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[mikelow]

But you can fold on the turn. The ace is just a bad card for you.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
wow i fold that preflop every time and i dont think it's close. i hate being out of position in big pots with unsuited big cards, liable to be dominated. i think it's a clearcut -EV and things only get worse when the board comes as it did, the pot gets big and youre tested on the turn. and im not being results oriented, gabe and i were just joking around last night on the phone about this exact sort of thing, how errors compound.


[/ QUOTE ]
This may be the first time I find myself agreeing with mike l. Ever.

I think Mike's point about compounding errors is spot on. The preflop call may be only a little -EV, but it creates a whole bunch of marginal situations on later streets.

[PokerPrince]

You couldn't fold a freshly dried tshirt. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

PokerPrince

[SinCityGuy]

Easy preflop fold here.

[golferbrent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd have folded pre-flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

No can do in this spot. He's raising in that spot with lots of hands that are dominated by KQ. Plus I get the ole discount to call. On the button I'd consider 3-betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Clark on this... the button can have a lot of hands in this spot. I believe K-Q is definitely a call from SB and definitely a possible 3-bet from the button. I think everybody is overestimating the holdings of the C/O. Worry too much.

On the turn, I can think of no worse card to create problems for you. The biggest hand you have to worry about is A-Q. Unfortunately, you have to call on the turn and hope for a non-spade that improves you.

The pot is giving enough of an overlay... that I think a fold is definitely incorrect... unless you have a very strong read on the strong player. I wouldn't worry about the donkeys in the hand. At this point they are irrelevant until they come alive if the spade hits.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy preflop fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon, he raised on the button, not UTG. Any competant players' range of hands there is HUGE.

[rory]

I thought about this some more and there are exactly a few hands you are behind to here and have outs and a lot more you are drawing dead to. If he does have a big A suited up with spades, he is ahead and you don't have many outs. If he has two pair or a set, you are drawing dead. It is actually more likely just mathematically for you to be drawing dead to two pair or a set because there are only a few ways he has a suited big ace you have outs against and many more ways for him to have two pair or a set. So, now that I had some time to think about it, it is a fold even getting 16-1 or 18-1 because you are drawing dead way more times than you have outs and the pot isn't laying you enough. You are drawing to 4 outs probably and getting 18-1 or so, but those 4 outs are dead more than half of the time to two pair or a set so you have to fold.

[rigoletto]

As for preflop it's an easy call. The only thing you have to know is that you easily have the best hand more than 40% of the time (to account for bad position) and this is definately the case in this situation.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't forget that I have no implied odds, but the fact that I lose an extra bet when I hit and it's not good really slashes my effective odds, especially considering the likelihood that spades are out against me.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes it a turn fold IMO. It looks like we (when I say 'we' I'm unjustly trying to put myself in the same category as Clark. It's wrong but it feels good. Besides it sounds cozy) are drawing dead a lot of the time considering that button is raising the field.

[Paluka]

I cannot believe people are saying "easy fold preflop". This seems like a really easy call.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
C'mon, he raised on the button, not UTG. Any competant players' range of hands there is HUGE.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree if he was trying to isolate one limper. After three players have limped in, I tend to give more respect to a solid player's raise. Yes, sometimes he'll be raising with a hand like QJs, but most of the time he's got you crushed. KQo in the SB isn't something to jump in here with. I would rather play 98s.

You are in the worst position post-flop, acting before the donkeys, with the solid player acting last. This one should be mucked.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy preflop fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon, he raised on the button, not UTG. Any competant players' range of hands there is HUGE.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW I'd never fold given the descriptions Clark gave. That said, I think bet-fold is an appropriate line for the turn. The ace is a bad card, but there's no guarantee the button has an ace. He could have other hands like TT-QQ that hate the ace and will fold. The pot is huge, and it's unlikely he'll make a play with JT suited or QT suited. It's possible he'd make a play with KTs or KJs, but probably unlikely. The more I think about it, it's close between calling and folding the turn when raised - if he is the type who is bright enough to raise KTs or KJs it probably swings it to a call, but even then millions of cards can come on the river to crush you. Even given the % chance you are best, you might not have enough equity to call.
-James

[RicktheRuler]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd have folded pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes.

[PokerPrince]

It is a really easy call.

PokerPrince

[Subfallen]

If the button is capable of going clark-raving-mad and trying to fold a better K with KJ, then I guess you could call...but then you have to fold any spade, J, T river, and probably others...yeah, fold.

[mikelow]

Preflop, I agree that folding against a loose raiser is wrong. After all, you do have two of the top three. But ace on the turn is a really bad card for you.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop, I agree that folding against a loose raiser is wrong. After all, you do have two of the top three. But ace on the turn is a really bad card for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you aren't saying this to condemn the turn bet, which was absolutely the right play in a pot with 13 bb in it. The chances that no one has an ace are much greater than 1/13. I know it's tough to wrap one's mind around it while the hand is taking place, but simply thinking "man, that ace is a bad card" is leaving too much out of the equation. That ace is a bad card probably 7/8 of the time or so, giving you plenty of wiggle room to bet the turn and show a profit - betting also prevents you from check-folding the best hand if it gets checked back around to the button, allowing him to bet TT-QQ to move you off.
-James

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Clark,

If you want to see the river, and you are about 80% sure button will bet, why not check call the turn? Unless you thought it would get checked through if you checked , your turn bet seems misguided. Now you are faced with calling with the worst hand and praying for a river out. From the title of your post, I have a feeling you spiked and won the hand. Or, maybe your button was bluff raising the turn and you were ahead the whole way. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

LGPG

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Clark,

If you want to see the river, and you are about 80% sure button will bet, why not check call the turn? Unless you thought it would get checked through if you checked , your turn bet seems misguided. Now you are faced with calling with the worst hand and praying for a river out. From the title of your post, I have a feeling you spiked and won the hand. Or, maybe your button was bluff raising the turn and you were ahead the whole way. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

LGPG

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes I think I only post hands like this just because I know it'll frustrate the heck out of you. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Others mentioned the reason for the turn bet pretty well.

[andyfox]

I wouldn't fold K-Q pre-flop. There's a good chance I have the best hand and three of my opponents play badly. Keep in mind "crappy" in Las Vegas usually means weak-tight, which minimizes the disadvantages of the poor position Clark has.

I'm not sure about the turn bet. I think with this draw-rich board, and now the ace, I'd rather check-call and check-hope. Not a great way to play, I know; but there are so many cards that could come on the river that would put me in an ugly spot.

Now, having bet and been raised, I think I'd have to give it up. Despite the big pot, there's just too much badness out there and the button's hand screams monster, riasing all thsoe players despite the Ace coming.

[Clarkmeister]

Andy, you are nearing 10,000 posts.

[oreogod]

Am I a pussy for not betting the turn?

[mike l.]

"I wouldn't fold K-Q pre-flop."

oh the lies just never stop around here. you fold that every time. you look at one card and see it's only a Q and you fold. and gabe folds and little michael davis folds i checked with him by phone too. and in both cases once i told them it was clarkmeister who did it they both said "oh well, i mean, er, i guess i should start calling with that. um. yeah." so they all way to play like you clark, and ray figured out you want to play like me (as if youre recent posts didnt make that clear).

so basically youll all be broke by the end of the year, clutching your KQ offs and T8 sooteds the whole long way down. sheesh. where's rick? he'll admit to folding the KQo and stand by it.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]

so basically youll all be broke by the end of the year, clutching your KQ offs and T8 sooteds the whole long way down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me. I'm buying a house before that can happen!

[mike l.]

"Not me. I'm buying a house before that can happen!"

lmfao

[andyfox]

One for each year of my life.

Geez, watching Mussina pitch tonight is PAINFUL.

[LarsVegas]

I think perhaps I would've folded this preflop in the same spot, but I while I knew or thought it was marginal, I suspect it's quite a mistake under the circumstances described.

However, in the midlimit online games I play in, the three first limpers would very very very rarely all fall into the "moron" category.

Postflop it fine, and I think bet-call, bet-fold, check-call and check-fold is a lot closer than we might like to think. None of those alternatives would strike me as awful, although check-fold comes pretty close.

lars

[YoureToast]

I guess its possible good player on button is still on a draw here and hes making a risky value bet...which would probably be worth the risk of a 3 bet by you if he had something like JTs and put you on KQ, KJ, KT which is likely. Good player's preflop raise would also be justified by JTs or 67s. Further, his turn riase would be even better if he thought he could get you off TPGK, which I suspect he did. With all that said, I doubt any of that was the case and that you you drawing to about 1/2 an out, so your fold (I know you did it) was just fine.

[roy_miami]

I like to check the turn when the Ace comes off because

a) its unlikely I have the best hand

and

b) One of the limpers may bet their Ace or if one of the limpers did flop something good they may abandon the plan to raise on the turn fearing a check through and bet out, somebody else may raise (button) and you have an easy fold.

The problem with the check is sometimes I fold a hand thats behind and has outs to improve to the best hand, but I don't have the pot odds to call 2 cold. (I'm not even sure this is a problem)

[Clarkmeister]

I folded. I think that reeks of slowplay on the flop and with 3 total non-spade outs and the real chance that I'm drawing dead I thought folding was pretty clear despite the likely 18-1 price. If I lose an extra bet every time I hit and am drawing dead, I really have an effective 1.5 outer. 18-1 isn't enough, I need more like 30-1.

Both fish called. The river was something. Checked to the button who checked and flipped up KsJs for flopped top pair + flush draw and a great turn raise. It was good. The funny thing is that I'm almost certain he figured there was a huge chance he had the best hand on the turn [1], which makes his play even stronger. Good raise by him that turned into a brilliant raise because I made what turned out to be a terrible fold [2].

[1] It's obviously unlikely I have an ace, and neither of the fish raised so it seems pretty dubious that they do either. This is a great bit of hand reading in a multiway pot where you need to err on the side of aggression, not of fear.

[2] I'm the king of adding in a % probability that my hand is good to all my postflop decisions, but in this case I really thought there was dang near zero chance I was in the lead. Shows what I know. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[joker122]

man, that is a really good raise.

[mike l.]

thinking about the hand later today i was thinking that it'd be a great place for another KQ to raise the turn.

but i dont think your opponent was really thinking or even worried about what you had clark, he had probably decided he would raise the turn when he flat called the flop. better players do this sort of pre-planning all the time, i dont need to tell you that of course. anyway he had planned to raise the turn, an A come, he probably second guessed his thought for a second and then decided ah hell with it the pot is big and he can check behind on the river, so he went ahead with his plan. ive been in this situation countless times, where you plan to do something, an ugly card falls, and do it anyway (and it oftentimes pays off). tommy's posted many times about just deciding to bet no matter what comes and he's right, it's so good to do that.

even if he was hand reading he knows you dont need to have a KQ to c/r that flop, you could have all sorts of hands. so i dont think his raise was brilliant he just caught you in a weird spot where you were busy trying to hand read, and, most importantly, seriously out of position.

i think there's pretty much no way on earth a decent higher limit player lays that down there btw given the pot size, and maybe most interestingly, they wouldnt even stop to consider it. ditto the river unless they face two cold or
have to overcall.

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
If the button is capable of going clark-raving-mad and trying to fold a better K with KJ...

[/ QUOTE ]
- me

HAHAHAHA. Somebody's been reading your posts Clarknasty... This move really does work against thinking players, huh?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]

i think there's pretty much no way on earth a decent higher limit player lays that down there btw given the pot size, and maybe most interestingly, they wouldnt even stop to consider it. ditto the river unless they face two cold or
have to overcall.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do love it when you come in and make these grandiose statements of fact. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[mike l.]

fine dont make it a statement of fact. but you do know what im talking about dont you? hasnt that been your experience when youve played higher?

[disjunction]

The turn raise seems easy to me, given this holding. But it's only deceptive because of the misplayed flop. The same extra money could have been claimed on the flop. Can anybody convince me that the opponent didn't misplay the the flop by not getting the money in while he could?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
The turn raise seems easy to me, given this holding. But it's only deceptive because of the misplayed flop. The same extra money could have been claimed on the flop. Can anybody convince me that the opponent didn't misplay the the flop by not getting the money in while he could?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a fair point, but this is a pretty good spot for him to forego that equity since I am vitually certain to bet the flop. Even so, I'd have 3-bet the flop in his shoes.

[disjunction]

[ QUOTE ]
Its a fair point, but this is a pretty good spot for him to forego that equity since I am vitually certain to bet the flop. Even so, I'd have 3-bet the flop in his shoes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, if a spade hits on the turn all of his customers with straight draws go away...

But another interesting thing is that his flop call discourages you from checkraising the turn with a hand that has him beat, which would drive out the gutshots and cut down his odds a little.

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
But another interesting thing is that his flop call discourages you from checkraising the turn with a hand that has him beat, which would drive out the gutshots and cut down his odds a little.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every time I find an insightful post, I copy and paste it to a file on my computer called "greatness.txt." The plan is to compile a huge list of maxims and insights that I can skim to continually keep me fresh on a variety of situations. This quote is my favorite so far, thx very much disjunction.

[disjunction]

Thanks for the compliment!

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

so basically youll all be broke by the end of the year, clutching your KQ offs and T8 sooteds the whole long way down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me. I'm buying a house before that can happen!

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? Have you not closed on your house yet? PM me immediately. My plans for coming to Vegas in June/July are largely contingent on you having a house.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
"I wouldn't fold K-Q pre-flop."

oh the lies just never stop around here. you fold that every time. you look at one card and see it's only a Q and you fold. and gabe folds and little michael davis folds i checked with him by phone too. and in both cases once i told them it was clarkmeister who did it they both said "oh well, i mean, er, i guess i should start calling with that. um. yeah." so they all way to play like you clark, and ray figured out you want to play like me (as if youre recent posts didnt make that clear).

so basically youll all be broke by the end of the year, clutching your KQ offs and T8 sooteds the whole long way down. sheesh. where's rick? he'll admit to folding the KQo and stand by it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Did somebody say 108 sooted? Sounds familiar.

[Steve Giufre]

FWIW, when I read this post, I was thinking you should fold the turn as well. I also dont know how people can argue for a preflop fold when you are fairly certain his range might go as wide as J9 suited. Its not that I dont think folding can be right, its just not right agaist somebody who is raising a bunch of fish with any number of hands.

[Tommy Angelo]

I would have called preflop, checkcalled the flop, and then checked the turn no matter what it was. (And FWIW, I would have raised with J9s on the button.)

Tommy

[fsuplayer]

seriously, how can that guy not 3 bet the flop?

[skp]

Funny how some guys say "easy call" preflop and others say "easy fold". This alone tells us that the decision is either tough or close. I think Gabe has it right: It doesn't really matter what you do. I also think that you should lean in favor of calling against a tough opponent who understands the game well (as he could well be raising with a whole slew of hands like Clark pointed out) but fold against someone whose play while good is less than stellar (as his raises after 3 limpers generally means group 1 hands that will usually leave you dominated). Of course, you also call if the button is a loose goose/maniac etc.

Some suggested 3 betting preflop. I would do that zero percent of the time.

[mikelow]

Often when I fold the turn, I have the best hand but it would lose on the river. This was a case of too many ways to lose.

Still like the fold, though. (But I think Clark had the K/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.) /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Now I know you aren't a folder, are you?

[mike l.]

"Did somebody say 108 sooted? Sounds familiar."

im allowed to do that. the rest of you have an image to uphold.

[Snoogins47]

I have a question, and it's an honest, "I don't know what I'm talking about" question. SKP, (and anybody else if I missed it,) why is a 3bet preflop out of the question in this hand? I have a feeling it has quite a bit to do with the fact that the limpers described are bad players. On one hand, I don't hate to isolate against somebody who has a fairly wide range of hands when I'm holding KQo, and knocking out some customers... but on the other hand, on my best days, I'd end up throwing all the fish back and fighting a shark with my bare hands while out of position with a hand that can get quite painful post flop.

And my other question: To those that advocate a call... just how bad would I have to suck post-flop to make folding a viable alternative? Because I think my first inclination is to fold here too.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
"Did somebody say 108 sooted? Sounds familiar."

im allowed to do that. the rest of you have an image to uphold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good enough for me.

[Joe Tall]

How the fck did this hand turn into a preflop debate? Can we talk about the turn bet please, people? Really, the turn bet, people, focus! 4 opponent to the turn, and he's on the button as the PFR, I don't see value in it Clark, I don't. If he doesn't have one, one of the cattle between you do and if he raises a draw or weaker K-playback, you're forced to fold, so why bet?

[Mikey]

I don't like the turn bet either, but the thing is this..... once that Ace hit whether he wanted to and he didn't want it do, his hand was over.

You have all those callers in there and with that type of flop either someone hit a better two pair which can happen because as Clark stated he's playing with Idiots and idiots do call with middle pair,bottom pair Ace Kicker. one of his Queens is tainted with a flush and the other queen completes a straight.

He has to believe the only hand that can help him at this point is a king.

I believe even if he checks and there is a bet, he probably has to fold there.

I guess you'd have to call out the math boys for a call on the turn if he did check and would have to call one bet but.... the pot is bigger now and its costing him one bet.... you can forget the bet he put in on the turn because that is part of the pot..... so even still checking and folding this turn can't be all that bad.

Also with the hand this guy has that raised him on the turn "KJ", he's only ahead of one other K holding that is reasonable and that is KT.

He's ahead of KJ, KT, QQ and JJ, with QQ not being as likely since he holds a Q in his hand.

TJ Cloutier says - "if you can't fold a winning hand, you can't win"

[Mikey]

"Should you 3-bet? I don't think so."

I want to meet any man who 3-bets this turn and bring him to my game PRONTO!

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
How the fck did this hand turn into a preflop debate? Can we talk about the turn bet please, people? Really, the turn bet, people, focus! 4 opponent to the turn, and he's on the button as the PFR, I don't see value in it Clark, I don't. If he doesn't have one, one of the cattle between you do and if he raises a draw or weaker K-playback, you're forced to fold, so why bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't put the PFR on an ace unless it was specifically AK. He wouldn't bet THAT flop with an unimproved ace unless it was a flush ace, and I'd have expected him to jam with that. Unless, of course, it was AK, then his line makes sense. His line also makes sense with a set.

The retards could have anything. I'm not giving them a free card on that board.

[hockey1]

What were you trying to accomplish with the turn bet?

[BurnsvilleCardClub]

If button is decent he realizes the quality of limpers in the pot and is bumping it to get solid players like Clark out of the pot. Definitely call preflop. I checkraise the flop. Lead the turn depending on the card, in this case, thats thats an awful card to see so I would check fold.

[leon]

Although it won him the pot here, I can't believe the button doesn't 3 bet the flop with all those retarded cold callers rather than going for the turn raise. I say it won him the pot b/c if he 3 bets the flop you probably see a showdown.

Leon

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
Good raise by him that turned into a brilliant raise because I made what turned out to be a terrible fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Not so much a bad play by you as an example of why it sucks to be out of position. He knows both the flop and turn couldn't of hit you, so he raises figuring raise/check cost the same as call/call.

[PokerBob]

Many here (who I'm sure play much better than me) are advocating a preflop fold. I just don't see it. BB is very likely coming along here, which means we are getting 10.5:1.5 on our investment. Even if we are dominated (which isn't a given) isn't it foolish not to get invloved here? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[PokerBob]

Clark,
IMO your flop c/r makes it look like you are trying to protect a weak made hand by blowing out the field. Do you think this made it easier for button to pop the turn on you?

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
BB is very likely coming along here, which means we are getting 10.5:1.5 on our investment. Even if we are dominated (which isn't a given) isn't it foolish not to get invloved here? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
The odds don't tell the story because we aren't all in. There's no question that if there were no postflop betting, we would like our hand here (given that at least some of the limpers are practically dead money). The problem is that there are still three rounds of betting to come in which we will be out of position with a hand that isn't so great for these sorts of multiway volume pots against a good player who may or may not have us dominated. Even though we often aren't dominated, it's hard to know if we are which is going to make this difficult to play well.

The best demonstration of why some want to fold is the way that it actually played out. Clark was the one with the dominating hand (KQ vs KJ) and yet his poor position and lack of information about where he was caused him to lose the pot (and several bets) anyway.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
The best demonstration of why some want to fold is the way that it actually played out. Clark was the one with the dominating hand (KQ vs KJ) and yet his poor position and lack of information about where he was caused him to lose the pot (and several bets) anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your point here, but IMO a large part of this problem comes from what the turn card was.