Odd play in a big pot, funny reaction

[adspar]

Long time lurker, I owe a lot to these boards.

For my first post, here is an interesting hand and a funny story. This was a small-stakes online 6-max game at a site I don't usually play. They don't offer hand histories, so this is from memory.

Preflop - 6 handed
* me in the small blind: Ah 9s
* 2 donkeys limp. Button raises. I call cause I could easily have the best hand. Big Blind 3-bets. All call.

Flop - 5 players, 15 small bets in the pot
* board: 8h, 6h, 3c
* I bet out because I figure the BB will raise his overpair, which will probably get everyone else to fold. That cleans up my Ace outs and maybe gets overcards out if pairing my 9 would be good, and I have the backdoor flush draw and a possible weak straight draw. The pot is huge, so its worth taking this shot.
* I bet, big blind raises, all fold to me and I call.
* Sweet, exactly what I wanted.

Turn - 2 players, 9.5 big bets in the pot.
* board: Th
* Now I picked up the flush draw, plus an inside straight draw. I figure I have 9 outs to the nut flush, plus 3 Aces and 3 sevens for probable winners. That's 15 outs of the 46 unseen cards, so I have an easy call getting 10.5 to 1 from the pot.
* I check, big blind bets, I call.

River - 2 players, 11.5 big bets in the pot
* board: Ad
* Sweet, I rivered top pair. No point betting it, but I probably win.
* I check, big blind bets, I call.
* I drag the 13.5 big bet pot after big blind shows 9d9c

This hand is a good examples of how big pots force you to change your strategy considerably. I think the circumstances of this hand made it appropriate to bet the flop with what was almost certainly the worst hand. Thanks to "Hold'em For Advanced Players" for winning me this pot.

Anyway, I mentioned that hilarity ensued. I very rarely engage my opponents in chat. In fact I usually turn the chat feature off, but I rarely play this site and hadn't turned it off.

The big blind was pretty upset about losing a big pot on the last card, so he begins berating me for what he thinks is bad play. It always pisses me off when I see players criticize their opponents' play, so this opportunity to respond was too good to pass up.

Big Blind says - "That was absolutely horrible"

Now keep in mind that I'm pretty proud of myself because I used some fairly sophisticated moves that paid off. Also note that this guy went a little overboard with his middle pocket pair. If he hadn't 3-bet preflop I probably would have just check-folded on the flop, although maybe someone else would have sucked out on him. But that is the nature of middle pocket pairs, and he kind of brought this "bad beat" upon himself.

I reply - "Yeah betting the river there didn't make too much sense for you. Horrible."

Big blind says - "Well I figured your hand hit the flop... you know, since you called a reraise."

Actually I called a raise not a reraise, but who's keeping track. So he is now defending his river bet. It started out with him criticizing me, but now I've got him flopping around trying to justify his own play.

I reply: "Horrible figuring."

Outzinged, he pretty much gives up on the "horrible' line of conversation, but is still fuming mad.

Big blind says: "I love it when idiots fall a$$ backwards into a hand and then act like they played it right"

This is so replete with irony:

1. At no point in our little conversation did I ever defend my play to him. I didn't act like I played it right; I simply questioned his play, but he's too mad and/or stupid to realize that.

2. Second, as I've already mentioned, with the possible exception of my preflop call, I think I did play my hand right, but he's not a good enough player to realize that. And I didn't fall into that hand, I had to work hard for it! But to his ignorant a$$, my play looked idiotic. (By the way, I find it hilarious when angry players find ways around the poker software's auto censoring: a$$, chit, etc. Where there's a will, there's a way.)

3. If you believe your opponent is such a bad player, why would you tell him? Criticism is going to piss a person off, which usually has one of two effects - it is either going to make them play better, or it will make them leave. Do you really want your opponents to get better? Do you really want a horrible player to leave your game?

I was content to simply enjoy irony #1 without further comment. As for irony #2, I felt no need to defend my play. I didn't want to educate him any more than I had already done by questioning his river bet, which I was only willing to do because I knew I wouldn't be playing in this game much longer. On that note, I figured I'd teach him irony lesson #3.

I responded: "You are mean. I don't want to play with you any more. Your meanness is driving this bad player away from your game."

And I left the table.

[diebitter]

I'd have added '... with your money' to the parting sentence /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[bobdibble]

Way too much talking. You should just say, "I was feeling lucky" and leave it at that.

[EStreet20]

A nice "Having an ace is DA BOMB" usually draws funny responses, or calling any part of any play or hand DA BOMB works. I forget which 2+2er drops the "TIME TO CALL THE WHAMBULAAAAAANCE" but that's a good way to frustrate someone.

Good luck,
Matt

[phy1234]

I think you should have led out the river. A lot of hands KK-99 will call your bet and many will check behind you if you check.

[chesspain]

I don't like the flop bet. Indeed, why do want to knock others out of the pot? If the BB has an overpair or a big ace, then you are drawing to three pair outs (without knowing which card you need to pair) in addition to some backdoor outs. Furthermore, knocking out others' overcards isn't going to help you unless all of the following occur: the BB is on big ace, you hit your nine, and then someone else calls the turn dry and hits his overcard on the river. Finally, with 18SB in the pot after the BB's potential flop raise, I wouldn't count on someone folding a piece of this board with an ace kicker. In fact, about the only way I like this plan is if you intend to bluff if you get it heads-up, in the hopes of getting the BB to fold his IU big ace. However, you are then looking at putting in at least another 2BB into this pot with your crappy ace.

Whereas it's good that you are putting significant thought into your actions, I don't think it was wise to possibly charge yourself double to see the turn when you were drawing to a handful of unclear outs. In fact, if you look at the hand more carefully, you paid a premium on the flop and turn with a drawing hand--and then when you hit your hand you couldn't even feel comfortable betting it because you never knew to what exactly you were drawing.

Overall, I believe that you took a concept from HEFAP, misapplied it, were forced to put money into the pot when you were behind, and then you failed to put money into the pot when you were ahead.

Not exactly a hand about which to be gloating.

[bpb]

[ QUOTE ]
Big Blind says - "That was absolutely horrible"


[/ QUOTE ]

He's right.

I think chesspain summarized it well.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
2 donkeys limp. Button raises. I call cause I could easily have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really like calling 2 bets cold with A/9 suited, especially from the small blind. If you really believe you have the best hand, then 3-bet to isolate and take momentum on the flop. If not, fold, but I don't think the call here is right. Anyone agree/disagree?

[adspar]

Thanks for the play critique, I was looking for that as much as just relaying a funny incident. My thoughts -

If BB has KK to 99, on the flop I'm about a 4-1 dog. If he has AK, I'm about a 4-1 dog. If he has 77 with a heart, I'm only 3-1. So regardless of what he holds, with 15 SBs out there to start, its worth me putting 2 bets in on the flop.

And in this game, my oppenents aren't good enough to realize that the pot is big enough for them to call a double flop bet with a hand like JcTc or AcTs. Some of their hands might take away from my equity, so since I was pretty sure he'd raise I still think the flop bet was a good play.

"Paid a premium on the turn."

On the turn the pot gave me over 10-1 and I'm only a 2-1 dog. I'll pay that premium all day.

I agree with you that betting the river would have been better. He probably can't raise AK if he's bet into, and he might check behind with 99-KK. But from what I had seen from this guy so far, he didn't seem like he'd check if I checked, so this mistake isn't too bad. Actually a check-raise would have been nasty.

And come on, I'm not gloating about the hand. (I am gloating about zinging a jackass.)

[mute]

[ QUOTE ]
I reply - "Yeah betting the river there didn't make too much sense for you. Horrible."


[/ QUOTE ]

Betting the river should be standard here. IMO BB played it perfectly.

[adspar]

I definitely think the preflop call was the marginal play here.

I probably fold A9o in this situation about 90% of the time (I'm not sure if this is right or wrong, but that is more my style), but the button had been raising pretty light but playing passively postflop. I considered 3betting, but didn't think the limpers would fold and I had crappy position so I just called.

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Long time lurker, I owe a lot to these boards.

For my first post, here is an interesting hand and a funny story. This was a small-stakes online 6-max game at a site I don't usually play. They don't offer hand histories, so this is from memory.

Preflop - 6 handed
* me in the small blind: Ah 9s
* 2 donkeys limp. Button raises. I call cause I could easily have the best hand. Big Blind 3-bets. All call.

Flop - 5 players, 15 small bets in the pot
* board: 8h, 6h, 3c
* I bet out because I figure the BB will raise his overpair, which will probably get everyone else to fold. That cleans up my Ace outs and maybe gets overcards out if pairing my 9 would be good, and I have the backdoor flush draw and a possible weak straight draw. The pot is huge, so its worth taking this shot.
* I bet, big blind raises, all fold to me and I call.
* Sweet, exactly what I wanted.

Turn - 2 players, 9.5 big bets in the pot.
* board: Th
* Now I picked up the flush draw, plus an inside straight draw. I figure I have 9 outs to the nut flush, plus 3 Aces and 3 sevens for probable winners. That's 15 outs of the 46 unseen cards, so I have an easy call getting 10.5 to 1 from the pot.
* I check, big blind bets, I call.

River - 2 players, 11.5 big bets in the pot
* board: Ad
* Sweet, I rivered top pair. No point betting it, but I probably win.
* I check, big blind bets, I call.
* I drag the 13.5 big bet pot after big blind shows 9d9c

This hand is a good examples of how big pots force you to change your strategy considerably. I think the circumstances of this hand made it appropriate to bet the flop with what was almost certainly the worst hand. Thanks to "Hold'em For Advanced Players" for winning me this pot.

Anyway, I mentioned that hilarity ensued. I very rarely engage my opponents in chat. In fact I usually turn the chat feature off, but I rarely play this site and hadn't turned it off.

The big blind was pretty upset about losing a big pot on the last card, so he begins berating me for what he thinks is bad play. It always pisses me off when I see players criticize their opponents' play, so this opportunity to respond was too good to pass up.

Big Blind says - "That was absolutely horrible"

Now keep in mind that I'm pretty proud of myself because I used some fairly sophisticated moves that paid off. Also note that this guy went a little overboard with his middle pocket pair. If he hadn't 3-bet preflop I probably would have just check-folded on the flop, although maybe someone else would have sucked out on him. But that is the nature of middle pocket pairs, and he kind of brought this "bad beat" upon himself.

I reply - "Yeah betting the river there didn't make too much sense for you. Horrible."

Big blind says - "Well I figured your hand hit the flop... you know, since you called a reraise."

Actually I called a raise not a reraise, but who's keeping track. So he is now defending his river bet. It started out with him criticizing me, but now I've got him flopping around trying to justify his own play.

I reply: "Horrible figuring."

Outzinged, he pretty much gives up on the "horrible' line of conversation, but is still fuming mad.

Big blind says: "I love it when idiots fall a$$ backwards into a hand and then act like they played it right"

This is so replete with irony:

1. At no point in our little conversation did I ever defend my play to him. I didn't act like I played it right; I simply questioned his play, but he's too mad and/or stupid to realize that.

2. Second, as I've already mentioned, with the possible exception of my preflop call, I think I did play my hand right, but he's not a good enough player to realize that. And I didn't fall into that hand, I had to work hard for it! But to his ignorant a$$, my play looked idiotic. (By the way, I find it hilarious when angry players find ways around the poker software's auto censoring: a$$, chit, etc. Where there's a will, there's a way.)

3. If you believe your opponent is such a bad player, why would you tell him? Criticism is going to piss a person off, which usually has one of two effects - it is either going to make them play better, or it will make them leave. Do you really want your opponents to get better? Do you really want a horrible player to leave your game?

I was content to simply enjoy irony #1 without further comment. As for irony #2, I felt no need to defend my play. I didn't want to educate him any more than I had already done by questioning his river bet, which I was only willing to do because I knew I wouldn't be playing in this game much longer. On that note, I figured I'd teach him irony lesson #3.

I responded: "You are mean. I don't want to play with you any more. Your meanness is driving this bad player away from your game."

And I left the table.

[/ QUOTE ]


.... so this is how fish think.


(And I'm not talking about the Big Blind).


Adam

[adspar]

Yeah despite what I said to rattle him, I don't actually have a problem with the way BB played it. The preflop raise is aggresive, but fine. Same with the river bet.

I do think he should have given consideration to waiting for the turn to raise, since anyone behind him would still have the odds to call 2 flop bets with 2 overcards. But for the same reason I like my flop bet, I like his flop raise - the rest of the field isn't going to call 2 cold here with overcards. But if you like his flop raise, you have to like my flop bet, no?

I do have a problem with his reaction, which is why I picked on his river bet.

[adspar]

Do you really think this is so horrible? This is a huge pot and I took a chance that worked out. See my reply to chesspain.

[Vendal]

Misplayed on every street. Turn is the only one that is debatable.

[adspar]

Nobody seems to like it. I guess the story sets me up to be a jackass, but for those who are interested in the hand and can ignore the clowning...

The full situation in this hand is that I was playing in a game at lower stakes that I usually play, and a situation arose where I got a chance to try a new idea, so I gave it a shot. This hand was played much differently than I've ever played this kind of hand before, so I'm in unfamiliar territory, especially on the river. If you don't think the play was good, why not?

Is this really such a poor application of the ideas in the "playing in big pots" section of HEPFAP? I'm particularly interested in the flop bet. In my response to chesspain I outline why I thought it was a good play.

I definitely need to rethink my river play here. I don't think there's much value to anything other than check-call on the turn, because I have to make a hand to win, but I'm open to suggestion.

Thanks

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
I was playing in a game at lower stakes that I usually play

[/ QUOTE ]

Irrelevant. You should always play your best, no matter what the stakes.


[ QUOTE ]
I got a chance to try a new idea, so I gave it a shot

[/ QUOTE ]

Your "idea" is -EV.


[ QUOTE ]
Is this really such a poor application of the ideas

[/ QUOTE ]

You got it.


[ QUOTE ]
I'm open to suggestion

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold preflop.



Adam

[TexArcher]

Can you really blame the BB for being upset? He had a nice pocket and caught a great flop and played it perfectly, you caught a three outer. I wouldn't have said anything to you the way he did, but I'd have been fuming a little too.

I like your idea of betting into the raiser on the flop to thin the field, but I wouldn't do it thinking I realistically had three outs (and a weak kicker at that).

I'd put that hand down preflop every time, you got him this time, but that's a losing play long-term.

[adspar]

Playing at lower stakes isn't irrelevant. It makes people more inclined to try a new idea that may or may not be a good one, that way if it turns out to be -EV, we don't lose as much as if we tried it in our regular game. Experimentation, blowing off steam, playing A9o in the SB for a raise, these things are all best done at the lowest stakes possible, no?

So, I agree with the preflop fold usually. And I agree with people who suggest betting the river.

But given that I called preflop, what is wrong with the flop thought process I outlined in response to chess? You prefer a check-call on the flop? Why? If betting and BB's raise drives out an opponent with a better Ace or even with 2 overcards, isn't that preferable for me in a pot this big? If not, why not?

[adspar]

Thanks for your response.

I don't blame him for being upset - I do blame him for the way he acted.

I'm at worst a 4-1 dog on the flop (except to AA), so saying I only have 3 outs isn't doing enough justice to my hand, especially in such a large pot.

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Playing at lower stakes isn't irrelevant. It makes people more inclined to try a new idea that may or may not be a good one, that way if it turns out to be -EV, we don't lose as much as if we tried it in our regular game. Experimentation, blowing off steam, playing A9o in the SB for a raise, these things are all best done at the lowest stakes possible, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay then, but just because your new "idea" works at a small stakes game doesn't mean it's applicable to a higher level game. Furthermore, in this case, your "idea" is -EV in any game - feel free to keep trying it out, though.

"Blowing off steam" at lower stakes is nearly the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. Money is money. And -EV is -EV. Period.



For the record, I'm still not convinced your not a troll.


Adam

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for your response.

I don't blame him for being upset - I do blame him for the way he acted.

I'm at worst a 4-1 dog on the flop (except to AA), so saying I only have 3 outs isn't doing enough justice to my hand, especially in such a large pot.

[/ QUOTE ]


Your mis-application of fundamental concepts is laughable.


(I'm thinking more and more that you are a troll, but somehow I think you really mean what you are saying...)


Adam

[Punker]

I don't like the flop bet simply because the only player likely to have a bigger ace than you is the button (since the first two players limped in), so you are unlikely to clean up any ace outs - most likely the ace outs are either already good, or you are unlikely to get anyone to fold (in my experience, bad players are more likely to make the mistake of calling when they should fold, as opposed to your hoped for folding when they should call).

In spots where you are drawing to a small number of outs, but those outs are likely to be good, I'd rather have many players in. I think that applies in this case.

[Subfallen]

I don't know if this is a joke, but the pre-flop call is abysmal. /images/graemlins/confused.gif Calling with T2s would be better here. Say donkey #1 has JTo, donkey #2 Q8s, button AJo, BB KK---your equity is < 10%! Not to mention ghastly reverse implied odds...

[Subfallen]

Reading past pre-flop...WTF would you bet the flop? Donks aren't going to fold any piece or draw here for 2 bets, that's pointless, and I would give you 3 outs generously for the backdoor draws + HEAVILY discounted overcard. (We already know the BB has a pair of 9's beat, don't even count those as outs.)

[adspar]

These guys were very passive. Despite the pot size I thought they'd be unlikely to continue without a pair or a good straight draw. Turned out to be correct here. I agree that the preflop call is weak.

If the BB is on AK, then my 9 is an out. If he has KK-99, my A is an out. And I've got backdoor draws. I don't have to be sure what he has, but I'm sure than unless he has a set or AA, I've got enough equity to require seeing the turn, even for 2 bets.

[adspar]

I don't know what you mean by saying I'm a troll, but I do know that you have repeatedly been insulting and condescending. But its nice that you are on the record.

"Blowing off steam" at lower stakes is nearly the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

Negreaunu's "party day" or whatever was a good example of this. Sometimes people enjoy playing where the money is less significant. You can take some chances preflop for the opportunity to face postflop decisions that are unfamiliar. I'm expanding my horizons. The consensus on this board is that my play wasn't good, so I won't take it back up with me. I learned something.

I agree with you that limping in the SB with A9o against a button raise is a losing play in almost any game. I don't agree that the concepts of betting what you know to be the worst hand in a big pot is always a losing proposition.

[adspar]

I understand and agree with you. I offer the evidence that everyone folded the flop for 2 bets to suggest that their passivity and predictability makes some marginal hands worth playing. Maybe A9o is one of them, or maybe not, but its not like I'm doing this in the party $10/20 6max game.

[Subfallen]

I don't know, it's good that you're thinking about your opponents, but this seems pretty hard to justify. Anyways, nice pot. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kevroc]

TIME TO CALL THE WHAMBULAAAAAANCE" is one of mine!

btw.. i fold PF but i do that even for half a bet.. i despise medium to weak aces...

[EStreet20]

I'm no high stakes player, but your misapplication of concepts and even terms shows me that you definitely are not either, unless you're a rich fish. Passivity would have nothing to do with players staying in the pot. Now I told you a great line to use before but here's my response about the hand itself. You got extremely lucky. Would I have said anything to you if I was BB? Maybe the obligitory sarcastic NH which you would have thought was serious and got pumped up about, skyrocketing your confidence enough to stick around and dump that pot plus more.

Good luck dude,
Matt

P.S. Easy fold preflop, even if it's .5-1

[JihadOnTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]

Now keep in mind that I'm pretty proud of myself because I used some fairly sophisticated moves that paid off. Also note that this guy went a little overboard with his middle pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy sh.it....

[adspar]

1. If I get there, bet the river. If I'm feeling exceptionally frisky, check-raise the river.

2. Nobody else can believe in a magical game in which it was right to play A9o preflop like this. But *if* there is ever a game to play it, it was this one. At least the A9 call was much less horrible than usual. The fact that the 2 limpers and the button both folded the flop in a monster pot supports this idea somewhat.

3. I haven't yet seen a compelling case against the flop bet, which was really the play that I liked in this hand. The huge pot makes weird things more reasonable. If I'm convinced there's a good chance the BB raises and the limpers will fold, I think this this bet is +EV (I'm no worse than 4-1 to win by the river against KK-99 or AK, and with 15SBs in the pot already, plus 4 more on the flop and turn from the BB, the pot is laying me almost 5-1 on the 2big bets I put in before the river. Right?). Someone pointed out that if the button has something like AJ, this play loses lots of value, which makes sense to me, especially if he calls 2 bets on the flop with AJ, but I didn't think he would in this game. So, say I knew 100% that the BB would raise and the other 3 would fold - is it then a good play? If so, what about 90%? 80% etc...

4. I shouldn't take an attempt at an amusing poker story I wrote up for a blog and use it as my first 2+2 post. Much different audience, my apologies. Next time I'll stick to just the hand in a serious forum, or just the story in a lighter forum.

5. Lots of people here feel the pain of the BB, and for them this story seemed to touch a nerve. My only issue with him was his preaching at the table. I think his preflop 3bet was questionable, but not bad. Same with his river bet.