Please help me with these hands. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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smartalecc5

05-29-2005, 01:29 AM

Ok, sorry if this post is a little long, but your help is appreciated.

HAND #1
----------------------------------
With these many people in the pot on the river, I did not think a raise was +EV and my one pair could hold up.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, Button folds, UTG+2 folds.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hand #2
Should I bet the turn here? (or fold preflop even??)
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, MP1 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 caps, MP1 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (10.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, SB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

Hand #3

Villain here is 60% VP$IP and 1.2 AF.
Do I need to be more aggressive here?
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, CO calls, BB 3-bets, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, CO folds.

River: (9.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~

Hand #4
I am mainly concerned about the preflop play here. PArt of me wanted to call and part of me wanted to fold - I took the risk-free way and just folded.
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 4 folds, Button 3-bets, HERO FOLDS, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, Button calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Button raises, BB calls, UTG+1 3-bets, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Button folds, BB calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 14.75 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has As 5s (high card, ace).
UTG+1 has Ks Kc (three of a kind, kings).
MP3 doesn't show.
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 14.75 BB. 

`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hand #5
What's your reaction after the flop checkraise/3bet. I remember this guys stats to be 57% VP$IP and 1.25 AF.
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero caps, BB calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.75 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has 3h 8h (full house, threes full of fives).
Hero has Qh Qd (two pair, queens and fives).
Outcome: BB wins 14.75 BB. 

Thanks in advance for your time /images/graemlins/smile.gif

istewart

05-29-2005, 01:39 AM

Hand #1 I like.

Hand #2 You really need to fold that preflop.

Hand #3 I would have capped the flop but your line isn't that bad IMHO.

Hand #4 Eh, with nobody in between, getting 6.5:2.5 is a little thin, I would agree. I am actually not sure what I would do. Like to hear others.

Hand #5 Capping the flop isn't horrible, but I probably would not have done it. Check-3-betting the field usually means monster, but I'm not saying I would find a fold anywhere. HU I wouldn't raise the turn; I'm just calling it down as he keeps up the aggression.

smartalecc5

05-29-2005, 01:43 AM

istewart, I am still learning about that ratio number things and where did you get 6.5:2.5?

6.5 of their bets to my 2.5 size of bet?

istewart

05-29-2005, 01:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is SB with 7, 7.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 4 folds, Button 3-bets

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the action to you. There are 1.5 small bets in the pot in blinds to start. UTG+1's raise puts 3.5 small bets in, and Button's 3-bet puts 3 more small bets in, for a total of 6.5 small bets. You have to call 2.5 to win 6.5, immediately.

Granted, many times UTG+1 and/or BB will call Button's 3-bet, lending you greater odds, but you cannot assume this, and often the betting will be capped, further cutting your implied odds.

smartalecc5

05-29-2005, 01:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is SB with 7, 7.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 4 folds, Button 3-bets

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the action to you. There are 1.5 small bets in the pot in blinds to start. UTG+1's raise puts 3.5 small bets in, and Button's 3-bet puts 3 more small bets in, for a total of 6.5 small bets. You have to call 2.5 to win 6.5, immediately.

Granted, many times UTG+1 and/or BB will call Button's 3-bet, lending you greater odds, but you cannot assume this, and often the betting will be capped, further cutting your implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet, thanks for the clear explanation. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

SteveL91

05-29-2005, 02:20 AM

Hand 1 is fine.

Hand 2 is a pre-flop fold. Given that you did decide to play: flop check is good, but bet the turn and re-evaluate on the river.

On Hand 3, I don't mind not capping the flop, but then you have to raise the turn. If you get re-raised, then I'd likely call down.

Hand 4 is fine. I wouldn't play that either. Add a few other players and I probably would.

Hand 5 is okay for the most part. I probably wouldn't cap the flop, because a check/3-bet on that board would make me vomit. Mostly, I just don't like capping the flop HU; I find that it tends to ruin my action on the big bet streets. Also, given the fact that you capped the flop... and he bet into you again on the turn, I don't think you'd be wrong to just call it down given what the board looks like.

Stuey

05-29-2005, 02:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 4 is fine. I wouldn't play that either. Add a few other players and I probably would.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never consider playing 77 in a reraised pot. I think the more players the worse it gets also. Putting money in the hand when there is a good chance you are facing a player with a bigger PP than you just seems wrong.

stlip

05-29-2005, 02:32 AM

Hand 1 fine

hand 2 fold preflop, KQo is one of my most profitable hands, better than AKo and I've got 30k hands -- which may be worth a post some time in the future -- but it's a funny hand: worth a raise UTG, only a calling hand if a few players have already limped and not even good enough to cold call two bets.

hand 3 I would cap the flop since there is someone else donating money to the pot. If villain still leads the turn after the cap I would call down as you did.

hand 4 fold

hand 5 you want those hands to call your raises all day long

Jakesta

05-29-2005, 02:33 AM

I think I would play 77 for 3 or even 4 bets if I knew that I would have at least 4 opponents to the flop. This is probably a higher variance play, but I think it would pay off in the long run.

What do you think?

Kumubou

05-29-2005, 02:53 AM

Hand 1: My initial reaction is to raise the river, but that really does not gain you anything, and opens you up for the (likely?) three-bet. I do not see LP clowns bluff betting often, and who the hell slowplays middle pair? You do see it enough to call, though (and the players behind you, if they overcall, will help that cause).

Hand 2: You need to turbo-muck KQo to a raise unless the raiser is LAG (then you three-bet to isolate). To a three bet, this is a t-t-turbo muck unless both players are the world's biggest clowns.

Given that, the action here is weird. SB bets out, and the PFRs just call it down? I think I fold, just so I don't have to think about it.

Hand 3: Fine. I probably cap the flop and if he leads into me into the turn, I call down a punch a cat.

Hand 4: Yes, fold. Your implied odds are shot to hell, and it's even odds that this is getting capped -- 4 SB to win 12-16 SB at 8:1 odds is teh suck. Fold this even if this plays the same, excpet the Button cold-calls -- there are not enough players to pay you off to profit.

Hand 5: How often do you see a bluff check-3bet on the flop, even from a fairly agressive player? Yeah, you are probably no good here (the initial raise is proper, though). No idea where I would fold it, though -- probably the turn, but I would hate myself for doing it.

-K

Stuey

05-29-2005, 03:06 AM

77 is the worst middle pair so your chances of winning the pot unimproved are low. When the pot is reraised your chances of winning unimproved get even worse. So you are playing for the chance to make a set only. So yah more players make things better.

I think the difference between a raised and a reraised pot is important here. If you knew preflop that you were facing 2 or more players with a PP higher than yours would you call the bet? I would not. It might very well be a +ev play to call but like you said very high variance.

Poor post flop play will be expensive. I would not play it just so I don't make more errors later. Some people, myself included, have trouble folding for just one bet when the pot gets this big. When it is capped preflop by 4 or more players you might even have odds to call one flop bet. Then on the turn it is easy to talk yourself into putting one more bet in to see the river. I know it is a dumb reason but if I avoid situations I play badly is that really dumb?

SteveL91

05-29-2005, 03:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I never consider playing 77 in a reraised pot. I think the more players the worse it gets also. Putting money in the hand when there is a good chance you are facing a player with a bigger PP than you just seems wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, look at this way: In a pot that's been raised and re-raised it's quite likely that someone has a big PP. Given that, 77 has a LOT of set value in these situations. When you hit, you're going to hit big; when you miss the flop, you'll usually end up folding. I say usually because it depends on the board, opponents and action. The nice thing, in my opinion, about playing these mid-PP is that they're fairly easy to get away from in most instances where you miss your set.

Honestly, I don't know that you're giving up all that much if you avoid them in pots that have been raised and re-raised. I just don't think it'll happen enough to make a dent in your bottom line, but the hand is still playable.

Jakesta

05-29-2005, 03:10 AM

No, it's not dumb.

I just think that going into the hand knowing that 90% of the time you're facing a big pocket pair makes it easier. You won't have to worry about staying around on a flop like 256 rainbow, thinking that your sevens are best. You can fit or fold. I think that this is +EV over the long run, if you are at a loose table where you can be guaranteed of 4 opponents. If you hit your 7 on the flop, you're likely golden. If you don't flop it, and you have odds to see the turn, you do so. If you don't have turn odds, you fold the flop. You are looking for a seven, or a nice OESD flop like 456, which gives you 7 or so likely outs. You will never have odds to see the river, so don't worry about it.

You understand?

stlip

05-29-2005, 03:22 AM

What you are forgetting here is that facing multiple opponents with big cards and possible bigger PP is that you will make your set and sometimes get beaten by a bigger set or make a boat and lose to a bigger boat. Those will be expensive losses, combined with all the times you miss the flop after paying 2 or 3 SBs this will never be a +EV play.

Stuey

05-29-2005, 03:59 AM

I understand your points.

I would require the math to convince me it is +EV. The very few times you make a hand you will get paid off nicely. But how does the few rare times you make second set affect the bottom line?

I am not good enough to know when someone has made a better set than me so I might get in a raising war thinking they had 2 pair or TP with a draw.

If I see the math that proves this is a +EV situation over the long run I would feel better. I'm not a math guy so I don't know how to do it. But when I see it I am smart enough to follow it and then it makes me feel better playing these types of hands.

From SSHE

[ QUOTE ]
People learn best through practice and feedback. ....
This is the normal human process for learning. Unfortunately, it does not work at all for poker. The immediate results in poker are often divorced from your actions.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does pokerstove say? And if this is a +EV situation why is it not in the SSHE preflop charts? Is it only +EV if played by a skilled player?

Sorry to be so hard to convince but it sure does not feel right.

Jakesta

05-29-2005, 12:35 PM

I wish I could provide the math but I can't.

Maybe post this in the probability forum and ask them?

lufbradolly

05-29-2005, 12:51 PM

I haven't looked at the other replies so i don't know if i'm thinkin along the lines everyone else is.
Hand 1: Yep played fine would play it the same way myself without reads.
Hand 2: I would of folded pre-flop. I think flop call is fine cos of the pot odds. Think you shud of bet the turn SB could easily just be leading into everyone on the flop with a 9 hoping no one has a Jack. probably would call also on the river not sure if its +EV but hard to let go in such a big pot.
Hand 3: Think i would cap the flop then if the BB still leads into you then just call down. But if its checked to you on the turn then bet.
Hand 4: I would of folded pre- flop as well. Looking at the results u can see that u would of lost big anyway.
Hand 5: Not sure about that its a tough one to lay down. personally i would of called down after the flop 3 bet. Painful to see the result.

marchron

05-30-2005, 05:53 AM

WARNING: 2+2 newbie here. If I'm wrong, be gentle; if I'm right, it was an accident, I swear.

Hand 1: MP1 either has a busted flush draw or he rivered a better hand. I think calling is fine.

Hand 2: Definitely fold pre-flop, but since you're in, taking one off on the flop seems okay at 20-1. I'd bet the turn, though, since your hand got a lot nicer; if they have you beat they'll raise you.

Hand 3: Cap the flop, raise the turn. The river jack is scary, though. Calling is fine.

Hand 4: Good fold. I probably wouldn't have made it, since I have an unhealthy jones for any pocket pair.

Hand 5: The check-reraise is odd, but I think you played it fine.

Schwartzy61

05-30-2005, 06:05 AM

Hand #1, I'd probably raise the river, and I would probably be wrong about it. Calling here might be best, I'll let some more experienced players delve into this one.

Hand #2, FOLD!, you are cold calling 3 bets with KQo, that's just donkish...

Hand #3, cap the flop and raise the turn, if he still 3-bets the turn, I slowdown and call the river UI.

Hand #4, so you fold 77 to 3 bets but KQo was OK. They are both folds and this time you made the right decision. Don't let results cloud your thinking. The raise and re-raise almost assuredly meant you were behind or 50/50 at best with one other guy...

Hand #5, this is the line you should have taken with AA in hand #3, why'd you do it here but not with AA?