Flush Draw

[IMTheWalrus8]

I've been thinking about this hand for a few days now, and I'm still not sure about my flop check/raise from UTG, and how it affects the turn and river.

I've been at the table for about 10 hands, and there hasn't been much preflop raising.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls.

Preflop seems standard here. Should be a profitable table with four cold-callers.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button folds, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, BB folds.

Overcard, backdoor straight, and nut flush draw. As we know from SSHE, the check/raise is good for protecting your hand, value, and to get some folds. In early position with everyone else already in the pot, my raise becomes a strict value play (but on a draw), and I'm not sure that's a strong enough argument for the raise here. The call/fold by the BB was unexpected.

In addition, my typical line is to lead the turn after check-raising the flop, especially with this kind of draw.

Turn: (10.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

So I still have a drawing hand but since no one reraised me on the flop, I go ahead and bet, hoping for folds. No one had shown any aggression besides me at this point in the hand, until MP2's raise. I have to give MP2 credit for a hand, and I put him on a set or two pair. Even if he has a straight, I still have a live draw.

Here are my normal lines with a flush draw after check-raising the flop:

If I hit my draw on the turn, I check-raise. If I miss, I'll lead out. Is this too predictable? My guess is that it isn't at the lower limits. I'll also lead out if there's a small field and I think it will get checked around.

The other aspect of this hand that I've been thinking about is that I never check-raise the turn unless I have a made hand, and perhaps it's something I should consider.

River: (16.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

I have to call here, right?

Final Pot: 19.75 BB

[A_C_Slater]

Why are you calling the river? Is it because you heard you shouldn't fold for one bet when the pot is big? That applies when you have a marginal hand that might be best. No way your ace high is good here 1 in 17 times.

[GoHoosiers]

The flop raise is awesome - a no-brainer.

You've got a huge equity edge here. You will hit your flush 35% of the time, and you are only putting only 1/6 of the money. You trapped the entire 6-man field for another bet.

But when you miss the turn, your equity edge goes way down. You don't want to put more than 1 bet in on 4th street. Check-call. Who cares if he knows you are on a flush draw, you are going to see the river regardless.

Check-fold the river. With two other player in the pot, your A-high will not stand up. The "do not fold for one bet" advice is for when you have some showdown value. You don't here.

Those are the breaks.


Rich

[MrWookie47]

The flop check/raise is not awesome, nor is it a no-brainer. Hero was the only preflop aggressor, and he didn't supply any reads that MP1 or any other player would bet the flop for him. Hero had no idea who would bet and allow him to check/raise. Consequently, he should have just bet out.

Check/call the turn.

Call on the river if you hate winning money.

[ClaytonN]

This is definitely not the time to check raise the flop. Built a pot and bet it out.

Check/call the turn.

Fold the river. 0% chance you have best hand.

[IMTheWalrus8]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you calling the river? Is it because you heard you shouldn't fold for one bet when the pot is big? That applies when you have a marginal hand that might be best. No way your ace high is good here 1 in 17 times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I guess that's a leak. I find it very hard to fold any hand on the river with a pot this big. I'll tighten up.

[IMTheWalrus8]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop check/raise is not awesome, nor is it a no-brainer. Hero was the only preflop aggressor, and he didn't supply any reads that MP1 or any other player would bet the flop for him. Hero had no idea who would bet and allow him to check/raise. Consequently, he should have just bet out.


[/ QUOTE ]

Understood. My "read" was really based on my overall experience at Party, and not on the specific table. I rarely see it checked around on the flop if there are this many in the pot.

[Arcturus]

I agree with MrWook. Even though you have great pot equity, just bet out. With the check-raise, you are making the pot so large that everyone should stay in and you haven't even made your hand yet. Now, someone that might have folded on the turn may stay in.

[cmwck]

I would forget about protection and just bet the flop.
You have a huge equity edge against 5 players, so get your money in there.

If you check, it may get checked through. Someone in late position may bet as well. But, if someone has A9 and it gets checked to them, theyd probably bet, so you have no hope of folding that hand on the flop. A hand like A6 would probably not fold either, as theyd be getting 8:1 even facing two cold.

I would check the turn. You dont know youll get three callers to make this a good value bet. If MP1 bets and gets two callers, you can consider raising the turn for value.

Do you think Ace-high is good 5% of the time on the river?
What do you think two different people were raising you with?

[MrWookie47]

I disagree with you. Your equity in this pot is not really tied to the number of players in the pot. You're drawing to the nuts. In fact, you want as many people in the pot as possible. They're paying you money now because of your equity edge, and will pay you a lot if you hit. The reason why you bet out instead of check/raising is not to fold people. What if, instead of MP1 betting, the button had bet? Now you're facing the entire field with two bets cold, and many more people will fold instead of paying you money. A check/raise can be either great or terrible depending on where the bet is coming from (assuming it comes). Since you don't know in advance where the bet is going to be, you should do the betting.

Additionally, you're not going to get someone who's holding an A with a paired kicker to fold. You can't "clean up" your A outs.

[IMTheWalrus8]

[ QUOTE ]
I would forget about protection and just bet the flop.
You have a huge equity edge against 5 players, so get your money in there.

If you check, it may get checked through. Someone in late position may bet as well. But, if someone has A9 and it gets checked to them, theyd probably bet, so you have no hope of folding that hand on the flop. A hand like A6 would probably not fold either, as theyd be getting 8:1 even facing two cold.

I would check the turn. You dont know youll get three callers to make this a good value bet. If MP1 bets and gets two callers, you can consider raising the turn for value.

Do you think Ace-high is good 5% of the time on the river?
What do you think two different people were raising you with?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was only raised once, and I could be against a busted flush draw and straight draw. But I'm not arguing my call anymore - it's a fold.

I like that turn advice, but I'm struggling with the wanting three callers thing. So this is not a case where I want less people in the pot because of the specfic draw I have? In other words, getting people to fold doesn't make my winning chances any better?

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would forget about protection and just bet the flop.
You have a huge equity edge against 5 players, so get your money in there.

If you check, it may get checked through. Someone in late position may bet as well. But, if someone has A9 and it gets checked to them, theyd probably bet, so you have no hope of folding that hand on the flop. A hand like A6 would probably not fold either, as theyd be getting 8:1 even facing two cold.

I would check the turn. You dont know youll get three callers to make this a good value bet. If MP1 bets and gets two callers, you can consider raising the turn for value.

Do you think Ace-high is good 5% of the time on the river?
What do you think two different people were raising you with?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was only raised once, and I could be against a busted flush draw and straight draw. But I'm not arguing my call anymore - it's a fold.

I like that turn advice, but I'm struggling with the wanting three callers thing. So this is not a case where I want less people in the pot because of the specfic draw I have? In other words, getting people to fold doesn't make my winning chances any better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops, only read through once and forgot the specific action. Either way, you're right, Ace-high isn't winning one time in 100.

With your draw, your ace overcard only makes up 4-7% of the equity on the turn (depending on how you discount your ace outs). Your total equity is around 28%. Even if someone did have AJ, A9, or A6, they ain't folding for one bet on the turn. And if they did, your equity would only increase by 4%.

If you check, the next guy bets, and two people call, you will be putting in 25% of the money at that point. Since your equity is 28% you technically have a small equity edge, which you can exploit with a raise,

[Arcturus]

Point taken. You are right by saying you don't want people to fold. However, now you have me thinking? Would it be better to check-call with the intention to raise on the turn if you get a safe card. The reason I say this is what if you bet and MP1 still bets? Then there is a good chance that half the field or more would fold. If you get that flush, you won't get as much as you would if you just check-call.

I'm not trying to argue here. I'm just trying to figure out what is the best play to get maximum payout. Does this make sense?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with you. Your equity in this pot is not really tied to the number of players in the pot. You're drawing to the nuts. In fact, you want as many people in the pot as possible. They're paying you money now because of your equity edge, and will pay you a lot if you hit. The reason why you bet out instead of check/raising is not to fold people. What if, instead of MP1 betting, the button had bet? Now you're facing the entire field with two bets cold, and many more people will fold instead of paying you money. A check/raise can be either great or terrible depending on where the bet is coming from (assuming it comes). Since you don't know in advance where the bet is going to be, you should do the betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only do you now know where, but there's an "if" factor here (though it's small for this particular hand). Besides... I want a 3-betting opporunity with this hand.

[Duerig]

Eh, I don't like a lot of the things you did here.

1. I don't like trying to check raise after you are the lone pf raiser. There is no reason to believe it won't get checked through.

2. Bluffing at the turn is, I think, a bad idea. You aren't going to be able to get 4 people to fold.

3. Why call the river?

I would probably bet and 3 bet the flop, check-call the turn and fold the river.

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I say this is what if you bet(the flop) and MP1 still raises?

[/ QUOTE ]
I fixed your post ; hopefully this is what you were trying to say?

By the way, you have no idea if MP1 will raise or not.