i took too many varieties

[1800GAMBLER]

standard one. just a question of if unknowns bluff here, in the 15/30 this was a pretty standard call because they made these stupid bluffs with T,x here. but in the 30/60?

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>

[James282]

This is a call for sure.
-James

[tomahawk]

strokes?

are you considering folding? pretty clear call imo. You have to be good more than one in ten.

[1800GAMBLER]

Yep, strokes.

[elindauer]

Let's put it this way. If you only call this bet when you have a flush, players will notice and start taking away pots from you. This is bad.

That doesn't mean you throw away your money on hopeless calls of course. But in this case, he can be bluffing a missed straight draw. He can be betting a weak J for value. He could be doing the "if I'm going to call, I might as well bet" move with a ten. You're good here often enough to call.

Good luck.
Eric

[gonores]

Everything here screams T to me.

[AJo Go All In]

[ QUOTE ]
in the 15/30 this was a pretty standard call because they made these stupid bluffs with T,x here.

[/ QUOTE ]

does this mean that a typical 15/30 player who bets Tx here on the river is trying to bluff you off a better hand? this can't possibly be right

[shmahappens]

in the 15/30 this was a pretty standard call because they made these stupid bluffs with T,x here. but in the 30/60?

Don't play the limit, play the player :-D

[steveyz]

I see a T with a good kicker betting this river, and not as a bluff.

Definite call.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]

does this mean that a typical 15/30 player who bets Tx here on the river is trying to bluff you off a better hand? this can't possibly be right


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, we can't really define what a player with Tx is doing, he's not value betting as he never has value, he's not bluffing as he never has no folding equity, he's probably betting because he would call anyway, but that still is stupid. I'd define it as a misapplied 'i'm calling so i bet as well bet to get a worse hand to call or a better hand to fold' aka stupid-hopeless-bet.

[ QUOTE ]

Everything here screams T to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. If i offer you a wager at even money which hand you thought was more likely you'd take Tx? While flush draws don't always c/r the flop, Tx doesn't always call the turn raise, so if we make those equal then it evens outs and comes down to the river, at which point i think a flush is more likely to bet out rather than Tx.

Flush may c/r, Tx may checkcall or checkfold. I think checkcall with Tx happens more than c/r with a flush draw, hence in this bet i'd take the flush draw. If you say 'screams' then you'd happily offer me 3:1 in this bet on flush draw?

[ QUOTE ]

Don't play the limit, play the player :-D

[/ QUOTE ]

This is stupid on a varity of levels.

Anyhow, i posted the hand because i wanted opinions, but then i always wonder why i want opinions because the replies i get always seem like a competition of who can say the most with the least amount of words in a smart ass way, rather than any analysis. This is a dull hand, with dull theory behind it which can be solved with dull easy math.

I need to be good 1 in 10 times. Lets assume an unknown 30/60 player averages to be mildly loose and mildly over aggressive, his range of hands on the river before the bet is probably:

KQ: 16 combos
Axs; K &gt; x =&gt; 6; yet not ATs AJs: 5
Kx; x = 9 8: 2
T9 TQ TK TA: 48.

So, 23:48, so on combinations say having Tx is 2:1. So 1 in 3 times he has Tx, so to make my call correct i need roughly 1/3 unknown 30/60 players to bet Tx on the river.

edit: there's a flaw in my last line; drunk, bedtime.

[flytrap]

If he indeed had a flush draw, why would he bet the turn after you raised the flop, and a total brick hit? There's no way you're going to be scared of this card. He has to be pretty sure you're not going to fold for his turn bet. I'm calling the river for sure.

[Paluka]

I thought this post was asking whether we should raise or not. Folding is totally insane.

[cwl]

[ QUOTE ]

Well, we can't really define what a player with Tx is doing, he's not value betting as he never has value, he's not bluffing as he never has no folding equity, he's probably betting because he would call anyway, but that still is stupid. I'd define it as a misapplied 'i'm calling so i bet as well bet to get a worse hand to call or a better hand to fold' aka stupid-hopeless-bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

i dont really wish to contend that betting a T here is the end all be all of great limit hold'em play but i dont think its anywhere near as bad a play as your making it out to be. maybe you specifically arent ever calling with worse than a T here but i can easily imagine a T getting called by something like 99/88/77 or AK/AQ that played their hand like you and was planning to check behind.

[theBruiser500]

"Let's put it this way. If you only call this bet when you have a flush, players will notice and start taking away pots from you. This is bad. "

good metagame point elindaur, really interesting post

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this post was asking whether we should raise or not. Folding is totally insane.

[/ QUOTE ]

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
If he indeed had a flush draw, why would he bet the turn after you raised the flop, and a total brick hit?

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]


Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand the flop call. Could you please explain
why don't reraise here?

Thanks,
Jonathan

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand the flop call. Could you please explain
why don't reraise here?

Thanks,
Jonathan

[/ QUOTE ]

so he could raise the turn instead.

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]




I don't understand the flop call. Could you please explain
why don't reraise here?

Thanks,
Jonathan

[/ QUOTE ]

so he could raise the turn instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. Been playing NL tourneys almost exclusively and
I forgot about this idiosyncrancy of limit hold 'em, with
the bets doubling on the turn.

By the way, I wonder how this tradition got started? It seems
like a strange distortion of the game, doesn't it?

Suerte,
Jonathan

[flub]

Dont forget 89s, AQ, or AK. Or for that matter any pocket pair. He could even be making a play with Ad7d or 5d6d.

-f