Tricky Trips

[Atropos]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO ($104.98)
Button ($94.4)
Hero ($289.2)
BB ($177.56)
UTG ($299.18)
MP ($149.05)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $1, Hero (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($5) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $3</font>, MP folds, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $10</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $7.

Turn: ($25) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $15</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $50</font>, Hero calls $35.

River: ($125) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG calls $238.18 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $363.18

UTG seemed quite tight to me. I had not seen any outrageous errors, but did not have a very good read on him. Big Stack Poker is still quite difficult for me. Did I completely butcher this hand?

[boondockst]

You played this extremely weird. You must raise preflop and you must lead on the flop. If he does indeed have 44 or a lucky 66 he'd probably call preflop anyway but if you lead the flop you might get more information. Your flop and river checks and turn cold-call sets you up for the bluff if that's what he's in fact doing...Think about how the villain would play this hand if he had AQ, AJ, AT, etc...the way you played it i can't call the river but you're setting yourself up to be way too predictable if your opponent pays attention. I'd almost have to think you're beat, though. Check-raising that flop screams you have an ace...Or maybe he decided you were bluffing. I really would like to know what he had but i'm sure he didn't show. Don't worry about being so tricky next time and you'll have a more clear-cut way to play the hands.

[Atropos]

"You played this extremely weird. You must raise preflop and you must lead on the flop. If he does indeed have 44 or a lucky 66 he'd probably call preflop anyway but if you lead the flop you might get more information. Your flop and river checks and turn cold-call sets you up for the bluff if that's what he's in fact doing..."

MMh I hate raising preflop from the SB with AK/AQ etc... most of the time I dont know what to do if I bet a missed flop and get called. Leading out the flop gives me more information? Isnt it rather unlikely that a player who flopped trips on an totally undangerous board would lead out? I thought that would set me up for a bluff. I think the worst streets are the turn and the river. Would a blocking bet work at the river? How big should it be?

[boondockst]

If I was a villain in the hand and i had ATo and you called the river I would say "Wow, I never guessed he had that."

OOP (SB) is not a reason to justify not raising AK PF 6max or otherwise. You will not make the most money from AK when the flop is 932r so don't be so concerned about that. You asked if a player who flopped trips would lead out. No he wouldn't which is why you might want to do it. Your check-raise screams that you have an ace and the villain continuing with the hand leads me to believe he might have you beat. If you do make a blocking bet on the river, it probably has to be at least $40-ish MINIMUM. This is a very strange hand as you are obviously WA/WB and the horrible river check/push is extremely nasty.

[boondockst]

I would also say you need to raise the AK pf so that you can gain the lead on this hand. With no raiser preflop and the weak play postflop, you are not in control and the villain is assuming the lead. Whether or not you had the best hand or not is tough but I can't see him pushing the river without a full house...This is a pretty tough hand played this way....Anybody call on the river?

[jkkkk]

[ QUOTE ]
"You played this extremely weird. You must raise preflop and you must lead on the flop. If he does indeed have 44 or a lucky 66 he'd probably call preflop anyway but if you lead the flop you might get more information. Your flop and river checks and turn cold-call sets you up for the bluff if that's what he's in fact doing..."

MMh I hate raising preflop from the SB with AK/AQ etc... most of the time I dont know what to do if I bet a missed flop and get called. Leading out the flop gives me more information? Isnt it rather unlikely that a player who flopped trips on an totally undangerous board would lead out? I thought that would set me up for a bluff. I think the worst streets are the turn and the river. Would a blocking bet work at the river? How big should it be?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't care what position you are in, you raise with ak pre-flop everytime.

personally i like the check-raise on the flop, your hand looks very nice.

turn... this is really looking like pocket 4's.. i like your line though.

river.. good fold, not happy about folding though, he really could have aq or something

[Atropos]

"i don't care what position you are in, you raise with ak pre-flop everytime."

OK that seems to be the general consensus on AK. What other hands do I always have to raise? Pairs down to JJ? TT? AQs?

I think the river fold is ok. He pushed in very fast + in my current mood/bankroll situation losing this huge pot would hurt me much more than winning it could make me happy.

[jkkkk]

i just realised this is a 6max thread, which makes your pre-flop call even worse.

anyhow i really have no idea about 6-max pre-flop play, i'll let someone else answer.

[boondockst]

If this affects your bankroll in anyway, immediately move down to another level. DO NOT make any decision based on how you are running/current BR level.


How can you like the turn? I don't see how you can cold-call on the turn. What are you expecting the river action to be. I don't know about you but if a villain coldcalls my raise and there isn't some scary draw completing on the river, I'm going in with whatever i raised with. So I see no point in calling the turn if you intend to check/fold the river. Are you hoping a king comes? the case ace? a 4 or 6 for a split (or maybe losing to quads???)

[boondockst]

6max i'm sure

ATs+
AJo+
99+
KQo
KJs+


are in most people's raising standards in 6 max. Position and players' strength are also considerations so these aren't the holy grail or anything. But AK just has to be a raise. If you raise PF with AK and he calls with AQ or AJ and this flop comes he might make one raise and after that he just calls you down (most likely)

[Atropos]

"How can you like the turn? I don't see how you can cold-call on the turn."

I dont like the turn. What do you mean with "cold-call"?

I thought that he would check behind if he had a total bluff and push in if he had me beat/was behind a little with AQo. But complete bluff was too unlikely for him, that's why the hand is bad.

[boondockst]

cold-call is kind of a contraction of "called his raise cold"

As in you didn't reraise him right there. I might call a raise cold with AKs on a flop of T82 with two of my suit and then see what comes on the turn. You have little chance to improve so you need to decide if your hand is best or not. You can make up your mind to call any bet he makes (stupid) or you can decide to try to find out where you're at in the hand. It's tough because the villain might have you horribly dominated or might be willing to risk his stack with any ace here.

So your options after his turn raise:

1) Call his raise and check/fold the river unimproved (no K or A)
2) Call his raise and put out a blocking bet on the river.
3) Call his raise and call any pot-sized or less bet on the river.
4) Reraise/push on the turn.


I HATE when you ask a question about a late street and I get this reply but the way you played the hand early makes it very difficult to play on later streets. It's interesting you made the comment on playing AK on a rags flop yet don't want to commit your stack with trips here. If you had a better bankroll/villain had a smaller stack would you have called this bet? Do you have Pokertracker stats on this villain?

[pzhon]

I would raise preflop, but this is not mandatory.

Good fold on the river. It's hard to imagine UTG does not have a full house.

[Atropos]

"If you had a better bankroll/villain had a smaller stack would you have called this bet?"

Yes of course, but against an opponent with a smaller stack or if I had a smaller stack I would have played Flop/Turn different too /images/graemlins/smile.gif It's just that we both had nearly 3 Buyins which made me quite anxious.

"Do you have Pokertracker stats on this villain?"

Only one session over 62 hands, but I find the stats describe his play quite appropriate:

VPIP: 70.97 !
PFR: 8.06%
But he was not as loose postflop because:
WTSD: 7.89% !
Won$ at SD: 66.67%
Total Aggression Factor: 0.53

He showed down 3 hands in total, 2 of them meaningless blind against blind check-downs, 1 hand where he got all-in with top set against bottom set...

[boondockst]

Why is raising AK preflop not mandatory?

Because it's SNEAKIER that way????

You play hands to win, you want to win big pots so you raise preflop.

If you flop Axx he'll have xx if you don't raise PF...if you do flop AKx you might not get action. It is MANDATORY to raise AK preflop 6max or otherwise period.

[Atropos]

Yes I raise AKo from every position - just not the Small Blind. I hate raising when I'm first to act on all subsequent streets, and playing AKo first in when missing the flop is difficult for me. However I will now start raising AKo, AQo, TT+ and some suited stuff from SB, this way opponents cant put me on a hand and AK will play easier.

[boondockst]

I say again, you will not make sizable money playing AKo on missed flops. Don't worry about it. The times you win with your PF raise will balance the times the flop is blanks and you have to release it.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
i just realised this is a 6max thread, which makes your pre-flop call even worse.

anyhow i really have no idea about 6-max pre-flop play, i'll let someone else answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

i limp with AK some of the time (esp. in EP) precisely because people think i would have raised with it. AA, KK, and QQ are the only hands i always raise. i don't have any problem getting action on 6xbb raises with my big pairs because of my 4%-5% PFR. if people actually paid attention to the frequency of my raises i would bump it up to 10%, but they don't. i only lose action from the very observant players or from people who datamine and use GT or PV, which i'd say make up less than 5% of players.

a lot of people underestimate the value of being a little bit deceptive in SSNL. i'm not saying this is the "right" way to play, just saying it's a legitimate option.