Done with stud....

[boondockst]

After churning up about 150 BB, I'm now on a 200BB+ downswing over the past few days in 1/2 6max stud on party...My bankroll is shot. The beats are increasingly sick. The game is either tough or the looseness makes every hand i make irrelevant. I know others get in this spot and i used to laugh at it but I've had streaks of 40+ hands w/o a win in a 6max game routinely now. At one point, I went 90 hands w/o a win. I've tried every strategy i know. Raising to isolate. Keeping the pot small to deny drawing odds. Check-raising. Only playing extremely strong hands...It doesn't matter..The hands i don't enter, an unimproved pair of aces beats an unimproved pair of kings that was bet on every street.

7 Card Stud High ($1/$2), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $0.50 (hand converter (http://www.geocities.com/greenage22/7StudConverter.hta.txt))

3rd Street - (1.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___SHOWN___brings-in
Seat 2: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___SHOWN___calls
Seat 3: xx xx J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/club.gif___SHOWN___calls
Seat 5: xx xx J/images/graemlins/spade.gif___SHOWN___calls
Hero: 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls

4th Street - (6.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___SHOWN___raises
Seat 2: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___SHOWN___checks___SHOWN___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___SHOWN___checks___folds
Seat 5: xx xx J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif___SHOWN___checks___SHOWN___calls
Hero: 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif___SHOWN___bets___SHOWN___calls

5th Street - (12.25 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif___SHOWN___bets___SHOWN___calls
Seat 2: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif___SHOWN___checks___SHOWN___calls___SHOWN_ __calls
Seat 5: xx xx J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif___SHOWN___checks___SHOWN___calls___SHOWN_ __calls
Hero: 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif___SHOWN___checks___SHOWN___raises

6th Street - (30.25 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___SHOWN___calls
Seat 2: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif___SHOWN___bets
Seat 5: xx xx J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif___SHOWN___folds
Hero: 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif___SHOWN___calls

River - (37.25 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif xx___SHOWN___folds
Seat 2: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif xx___SHOWN___bets
Hero: 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif___SHOWN___calls

Total pot: (42.25 BB)

Villain started with 7 2 A rainbow for the runner runner runner full house

[beta1607]

Your frustraded right now which is normal.

I had a huge -BB streak this weak that was well over 1K of money. Only part of that is due to me getting sucked out on the majority was from being a tilt monkey or simply out played. I decided to take a break from stud and played some hold em for a change of pace got my mind set straight and then played better then I ever played in stud before.

I If you are going 40-90 hands without a win, only so much of that can be attributed to the beats and a cold deck. Stud requires far more thought then hold em at similar levels so go play some of that for a couple days, then have another stud session - post some hands with difficult decisions here and you will start to dominate the 1/2 stud again.

edit: Isn't the 1/2 structure really bad at party? That could be part of the problem?

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]

After churning up about 150 BB, I'm now on a 200BB+ downswing

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats neither a large win streak or a large losing streak for stud. Keep your head up and continue to play well, things will change. Quitters never win....or something like that. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Mike Emery

[boondockst]

I like the bad structure at party but I can't seem to get on the good end of it lately. I swear, the hands i'm not in, any two pair works, yet the really hot cards come out for my opponents in the hands I'm in.

I either:

Start out with rags.
Have a playable hand but too many outs are dead (even for 6max)
AKQs gets a 7 and 2 on 4th and 5th
My opponents all make open high pairs on 4th and 5th.
I'm sucked out on the river.
I was way behind and couldn't catch up.

Great example:

For some reason i got aggressive on this hand and was for once rewarded with a SCARY board. When i saw how i lost, I was in complete shock. That's right. Out of 1560 possible rivers, I win 1514 of them. I have three tens, a flush draw and obviously if he does miraculously catch one of the two remaining kings, I can catch any of 3 full houses or quads. (Seat 5 was completing with any 3 + TILT + cold deck = give it a shot)

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=972023
pokenum -7s kh kc jh 3d 9d 8d - ac 3c td th 8c tc
7-card Stud Hi: 1560 enumerated outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kc 9d 8d 3d Kh Jh 46 2.95 1514 97.05 0 0.00 0.029
Ac Tc 8c 3c Td Th 1514 97.05 46 2.95 0 0.00 0.971


7 Card Stud High ($1/$2), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $0.50 (hand converter (http://www.geocities.com/greenage22/7StudConverter.hta.txt))

3rd Street - (1.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J/images/graemlins/heart.gif___SHOWN___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/club.gif___SHOWN___brings-in___SHOWN___calls
Hero: A/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___SHOWN___calls___SHOWN___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___SHOWN___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif___SHOWN___completes
Seat 6: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif___SHOWN___calls

4th Street - (12.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___SHOWN___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___SHOWN___calls
Hero: A/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif___SHOWN___double bets
Seat 5: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif___SHOWN___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls

5th Street - (13.50 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___SHOWN___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls
Hero: A/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif___SHOWN___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif___SHOWN___calls

6th Street - (20.50 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___SHOWN___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif___SHOWN___folds
Hero: A/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif___SHOWN___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___SHOWN___calls

River - (27.50 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif xx___SHOWN___raises
Hero: A/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif___SHOWN___bets___SHOWN___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif xx___SHOWN___folds

Total pot: (35.50 BB)

Results:
Main Pot: $35.5 | Rake: $1

Seat 1: [ Kh Kc Jh 3d 9d 8d Kd ] [ three of a kind, kings -- Kh,Kc,Kd,Jh,9d ]

Hero: [ Ac 3c Td Th 8c Tc 5h ] [ three of a kind, tens -- Ac,Td,Th,Tc,8c ]

[Roland]

I have to ask: Why did you play this hand?

(also: what’s up with the “SHOWN”?)

[boondockst]

no idea what's with the "SHOWN"

No idea why i played the hand, picked what i thought was a good spot against extremely bad players. Chose to see 3rd. Thought i could drive them out on 4th. I saw that the pot was mine on 6th and gasped on 7th. This is NOT my typical play but I was just illustrating how that even when i get rewarded on what is mainly a bluff, it's still not good enough. Yes, I understand not to bluff these players, but after having the above opponent make open trip aces on me, i thought it ironic that folks called me down when i showed open trip 10s (i want that right? guess not)

[BeerMoney]

Just ask Mike Emery how many times I've "retired" from this game.

Sorry to say it sir, but you aren't going anywhere. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Roland]

So you’re down 50 big bets after a few sessions… that means exactly nothing. I’ve lost that much in a single session at 10/20. It just happens.
But okay, that isn’t going to help you. So let me try again:

a) Since you’re this frustrated after only a few losing sessions, I think you have problems understanding how long “the long run” can actually be. The answer is of course “pretty damn long”. But, and I’m not so sure you knew this , the answer is also “who cares?”. I think you’re sitting there asking yourself “when are these (censored) going to stop hitting there gutshots on the river?”, but that question is totally irrelevant. The only question that is relevant is “am I making enough +EV decisions?”. This brings us to point b).
b) I don’t know if you’re making enough +EV decisions to beat the Party 1/2. But one thing is for certain, making more of them isn’t going to hurt you. For starters, your starting hand selection sucks. So post hands where you weren’t sure if your hand was playable. Next, re-read TOP and 7CSFAP. Then, if you can afford it, get yourself some of the other excellent books (I suggest Poker Essays I, II and III). And lastly, post hands, post hands, post hands…
c) So, once you’re done with point b), go back to point a) and ask yourself again: “Am I making enough +EV decisions to beat this game”. Hopefully, the answer will be “yes”, and that solves all your problems. You see, if you can positively answer “yes”, you’re winning. Even if you’re loosing. Is that cool, or what?

I don’t know if all this makes sense. I just played a 12 hour session and was gonna get some sleep, but my housemate just bought some beer and I couldn’t resist. Cheers.

[lstream]

Hopefully a story from a someone who has been through the same thing will help you sort this out.

I have attached a post I made in early February. This was after a brutal stretch that started on New Years Day and lasted until early February. I was down about 267 big bets at the 3/6 tables when I "quit" too. These stretches happen, but I think they feed on themselves. You get so tired of not winning a hand that you start to force things and make the problem worse.

I am not sure if this will help, but one of the steps I took was to get the hand history of every single hand I lost in a few sessions. I then reviewed my play against the relevant parts of 7csfap. Sure enough, my memory was somewhat skewed. I had good recollection of the truly bad beats, and there were a lot of them. On the other hand, I found several hands where I was making clear mistakes and contributing to the problem. I vowed to stop doing these things and moved down in stakes to play myself back into shape.

My stint in the "minors" lasted well over a month, but I was able to prove that I was not a total moron at the tables. I then moved back up to 3/6 and then 5/10, and the experience has been great - very profitable. I am very glad that I did not quit for real. I still make some stupid plays as you will see in my hand posts - people from here who have played at the tables with me have also seen these mistakes. The path to becoming a really good stud player, like some of the posters here is pretty long from what I can tell. You have to be prepared for a long process if you want to excel at the game and take the playing mistakes down to an acceptable level.

I think it was MRBAA who told me at the time that these games are beatable, and after my rough experience I thought that pure bad luck could overcome good play. However, he was right - decent card players can win at this game. On the other hand it takes very few mistakes to convert a winning session into a losing one. I bet if you get methodical about it, you can find and plug leaks you don't think exist.

Anyway, here is the post - sound familiar? I laugh about it now.

<font color="blue"> I am one of the frequent 3/6 players, and your situation sounds almost identical to mine, including the timing. It's like someone flipped a switch in January. I suspect our playing styles are similar.

There is a fine line between winning and losing here it seems. I find that I have to win at least a few of the big pots that I contest. If not I am a losing player. During January I can think of 15-20 mega pots, where I was winning up until the river and someone caught miracle cards to beat me. I have won only 1 of the big pots I have contested. These are $100 plus pots, so we are talking $1500 to $2000. These are hands were people catch gut shot straights, quads to beat my trips that were beating their smaller trips, flushes to beat my straights (often with only two of a suit showing), and most of all boats made on the river that beat boats that I made on 5'th or 6'th. Two guys also hit straight flushes - once when I had trips and another when I had a boat. As you mention, the most frustrating part is that the guys who do most of the damage are breaking every rule in the book on how to play.

I also think this kind of stuff leads to making some dumb plays, at least once or twice a night. Overall, though I don't think my play has changed enough to account for the dramatic difference in results I am seeing.

I afraid I don't have a good answer on how to play through this. As a matter of fact, last night was the last straw for me. It was almost comical on how I was losing hands like the ones I describe above. At the end of the session, I went to the cashier and cashed out my entire account. It will be while before I am back.

Fortunately I am way up overall. I'm thinking of having some fun at another site playing in some tournaments. I can last a long time with $10/20 buy-in tournaments.
</font>

[greenage]

[ QUOTE ]
no idea what's with the "SHOWN"

[/ QUOTE ]

When the hand converter doesn’t recognize an action, it converts the first word of it to uppercase so that I can see what it is.

Can you Private Message one of these hand histories to me so that I can see what triggered this problem?

greenage

[SittingBull]

playable. If U do not play loose enough,then your stack will be chipped away. I would suggest playing the 1/2 at PokerStars. The ante is 10% of the SB. This structure will reduce your variance and U can play much tighter while many of your OPPOs. continue to play too loose for the ante.
If the ante is over 20% of SB,ur approaching a crap-shoot structure.
Stay away from these games. I'm NOT saying that a 25% structure is UNBEATABE. However,expect horrendous swings in these big ante games. Keep in mind that the larger the ante,the looser u have to play to survive and win. The smaller the ante, the smaller the variance,and the tigher u play.
SittingBull

[SittingBull]

complex than hold'em?If so,would u say it takes much longer to be a proficient stud player than a proficient hold'em player at comparable levels?
Hmm
Just wondering,
SittingBull

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet if you get methodical about it,

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet that's what you did, stream!

[bygmesterf]

[ QUOTE ]

edit: Isn't the 1/2 structure really bad at party? That could be part of the problem?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the 1/2 stucture at party is very similar to the $40/80 structure in an B&amp;M. It's a great structure that encourages loose agressive play. If you try to be tight, the ante's will eat you up. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[beta1607]

Yes and Yes. I will use 5/10 and 3/6 as examples because that is what I am most familiar with. Using programs like 'pokertracker' many players can easily auto pilot 4-12 tables of hold em where as I think even the best stud player loses a lot by playing more then 2. In hold em a basic thing like figuring pot odds is 1000 times easier given that there is no dead cards one must keep track of. I also think that there is more of an edge to an "expert" stud player over an average or poor opponent then in hold em. Let nobody forget Phil Ivey cut his teeth on the stud games in Atlantic city and he is now arguably the best all around player in the world.

[Andy B]

This one is easy. You played it bad. This is a trash hand and I wouldn't even limp in from late position with it. Playing it first to act is ridiculous. When you get three callers on fourth, it should occur to you that your little charade isn't working. I would check and pray for a free card. Of course you bet your open trips on sixth, but the river bet is just plain dumb. Yes, occasionally you will get a call from someone who can't beat your board. Far more often, you will be called only by people who have you beaten. And occasionally, you will be in the uncomfortable position of getting raised, as happened here. This bet is serious -EV. The pot's too big to fold to the raise, but you're not going to be good very often.

[Andy B]

Well, I'm glad that this little glitch was brought to greenage's attention, but would it have killed you to take a minute to cut out all of the "SHOWN"s?

I lean towards completing on third street. I think fourth is well worth a three-bet.

I wouldn't have gone for the check-raise on fifth myself. With the open Aces and your three-flush showing, a lot of players will get skeered and check behind you. A bet by you looks natural and shouldn't necessarily kill your action. When you check-raise, it will look for all the world like a flush, and the other players should have an easier time getting away from their hands.

I probably call down the open trips too. Tough break.

I do believe that Party offers players the option to shuffle their hole cards. That may not have been a runner-runner full house after all.

This isn't necessarily relevant to your plight, but something I've never quite gotten is the popularity of 6-max games. I'm mostly playing on-line these days (who'da thunk?), but I've played a lot more B&amp;M over the years. Lots of B&amp;M complain when games get short-handed. Some will refuse to play, and even I am somewhat careful when it comes to chosing whether or not to stay in a game that's getting short-handed. A 6-max game is invariably going to be short-handed. I've been playing small NLHE money games on Stars lately, and most of the tables are 6-max. Are on-line players cut from a different cloth than B&amp;M players? Is it just because pros or pseudo-pros choose the open 6-max tables to sit at, hoping that a fish will come along to play him heads-up, and that's how most of the games get started? I don't read the hold'em forums much these days, and I almost never visit the zoo, so this topic may have been beaten to death without my knowledge. If anyone has any insight, or can point to a thread, I'd appreciate it.

[BeerMoney]

I don't understand the 6 max craze either, although the 10/20 6 max hold em tables are some of the wildest table's I have ever experienced. It just feels like gambling at its purest.

I'm with you, I like a full table, where I can benefit from my patience and tight play.

[RandomUser]

Switch back to 8-man tables, tighten up, and play through the downswing.

Variance is a bitch, patience is everything.

If it bothering you to that degree, take a break from gambling, period, until the emotions are gone.

[boondockst]

I improperly played the hand because i was being a tilt monkey and the player who completed was completing every single hand. In all seriousness, how do you handle this player? As we speak, at a 0.5/1 table 4-handed, a guy is completing every single hand and i have Ac Qc 2x and he completes with Kh showing and probably does NOT have a pair of kings but is it worth the call? I folded but what do i do with pocket aces? Reraise him? Smoothcall and check-raise on a later street?

[BeerMoney]

As soon as you can, move up to 3/6. The 1/2 and .5/1 tables are just ridiculous with the ante and such.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
I improperly played the hand because i was being a tilt monkey and the player who completed was completing every single hand. In all seriousness, how do you handle this player? As we speak, at a 0.5/1 table 4-handed, a guy is completing every single hand and i have Ac Qc 2x and he completes with Kh showing and probably does NOT have a pair of kings but is it worth the call? I folded but what do i do with pocket aces? Reraise him? Smoothcall and check-raise on a later street?

[/ QUOTE ]

ever hear of game selection? If there is a player making moves that you are uncomfortable with, maybe you should sit at a different table instead of trying to outwit him

[lstream]

[ QUOTE ]
As we speak, at a 0.5/1 table 4-handed, a guy is completing every single hand and i have Ac Qc 2x and he completes with Kh showing and probably does NOT have a pair of kings but is it worth the call? I folded but what do i do with pocket aces? Reraise him? Smoothcall and check-raise on a later street?

[/ QUOTE ]

Watch him for a bit and make sure that he plays with crap. If he really does, then jump in with hands like live small pairs with live overcard kickers. Even better if two cards are suited. If you have a big pair all the better. Don't just call - raise, re-reraise and cap. That will settle him down - this applies to heads up play. Don't get drawn into playing with absolute junk though. Also, if you start to read guys like this correctly, then it will do wonders for the confidence. If you know or strongly suspect you are ahead then build the pot.

Players like this can be wonderefully profitable, if you "lock in" and figure them out. Pretty soon it will be you doing the bullying, not him.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

edit: Isn't the 1/2 structure really bad at party? That could be part of the problem?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the 1/2 stucture at party is very similar to the $40/80 structure in an B&amp;M. It's a great structure that encourages loose agressive play. If you try to be tight, the ante's will eat you up. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you're saying a B&amp;M is going to have a $10 ante in a $40/$80 game with a $20 bring in?

I would also like to point out to the original poster that he should check out PokerStars. From greenage's post, it looks like they have a very good structure for low limit games.

[boondockst]

good structure as in conducive to waiting for good hands to come in?

Do the other players stay loose?

[MRBAA]

I've been playing a bit of 1-2 lately after over-cashing out, hitting a downswing at 3-6 and deciding to see if I could play my way back up. THESE GAMES ARE VERY CRUSHABLE. And I say this despite taking my share of beats etc. Most players in this game enter way too many pots and call way too much after that. Look for players who will fold, sure, but mostly wait for strong hands -- the $20, $30 and even $40 pots you win will more than make up for the ante. Of course, don't just be a mindless rock. Calibrate your play to the players. But remember - do most of your betting when you WANT to get called. And don't call them in small pots when you could be behind. Hands like (Q7)A are really bad in this game -- you want draws or pairs because where you really make your money is hitting big (given the situation) hands and getting called by 2-or 3 loose gooses who just "have to" keep you honest. Remember also that the game changes hugely when there are 5 loose players at the table versus when it goes to 3 handed or head up. If you can adjust, you will win. There is still no game where my win rate is higher.