Trash in the SB against 2+2er

[Phoenix1010]

This is the first hand of the bubble. BB has posted on 2+2 before, but not often. He appears to be playing the way you would expect any Supbroer to. I believe the blinds are going up within the next couple of hands.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t4805)
Button (t535)
Hero (t1260)
BB (t1400)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero?

[DasLeben]

Personally, I'd make this push against a 2+2er every time. That is, unless he knew I was a 2+2er as well. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Newt_Buggs]

I'm making this push against any player that I have seen playing well.

[lastchance]

If Villain's 2+2, he understands the bubble. Against anyone who understands the bubble, Hero slides his chips all the way in. Any 2 push!

[Big Limpin']

Hmmmm, but what if we reverse the viewpoint?

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t4805)
Button (t535)
SB (t1260)
"New" Hero (t1400)

Preflop: "New" Hero is BB with XxXx.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB pushes (likely any 2) "New" Hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

What would be a prudent calling range if you knew the 2+2 SB's push was with any two?

Certainly you would still be best to muck the Q9-type of hands, even if they are somewhat above average. But KOing the SB prolly gives you a lock 2nd pace, and a significantly better shot at winner.

This is not rhetorical, im interested in others standards for hands to call with when you know the SB is pushing any 2

(also, sorry for hijack Mr. Phoenix, in the future should i ask these kind of follow up questions as new posts? /images/graemlins/confused.gif)

[lastchance]

If I remember correctly, it's something to the tune of 99+, AQ+. Maybe a bit looser here, but not much.

[Phoenix1010]

No problem. I think it's better to keep related topics in the thread rather than clutter the forum anyway. I think Lastchance's range is probably close. It's almost a pure math problem, I don't have Eastbay's tool so I can't really answer your question outside of guessing.

-Phoenix

[microbet]

When you KNOW SB is pushing with ANY two, you have a pretty wide range of calling hands with +$EV.

Ax, K7o+, K4s+, Q9o+, Q8s+, JT, 44+ (interesting that JT is good but 33 isn't)

The range is wider than one might think because short stack isn't that much shorter than the other two small stacks.

Unless I knew for sure it was an aggressive 2+2'er and I knew for sure that he didn't know I was a 2+2'er, I would tighten up considerably - but still call with A8, KJ, 77 or so.

[freemoney]

i think if you are using something such as eastbays tool as something more than an aid then you are really inhibitin your ability to improve, this isnt meant to an individual but more as a broad statement.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
i think if you are using something such as eastbays tool as something more than an aid then you are really inhibitin your ability to improve, this isnt meant to an individual but more as a broad statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not using Eastbay's tool at all...

The question that BL posed was more a math problem than anything, so I gave the obvious answer: use a calculator.

I agree with your general statement that sometimes people put too much faith in ICM and $EV calculations, but there's no better answer for strict math problems.

-Phoenix

[AbelM]

What's a Supbroer? What buyin level was this in?

[astarck]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm making this push against any player that I have seen playing well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel the same way. You know the 2+2er isn't going to call you unless he has a premium hand (just like anyone else would). I would imagine the 2+2er knows that confrontation hurts those invovled in the hand.

I would be inclined to say I make this push MORE often with a 2+2er in the bb.

[The once and future king]

If you happen to play this 2+2er quite often, then there is EV in him calling with a slightly lower range, as this will disincline him/her to push with any two agianst your blind, thus defending your blind. There is some value in being seen as slightly unpredictable in the BB by players good enough to notice.

However this is a very minor issue with only the slightest bearing on this situation.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm making this push against any player that I have seen playing well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel the same way. You know the 2+2er isn't going to call you unless he has a premium hand (just like anyone else would). I would imagine the 2+2er knows that confrontation hurts those invovled in the hand.

I would be inclined to say I make this push MORE often with a 2+2er in the bb.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the BB knows the SB is a good player, he will know the SB will push with any 2 (as he should). This means the BB will loosen up bigtime and possibly call with any pair any A and any 2 high cards possibly.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
What's a Supbroer? What buyin level was this in?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a word I invented /images/graemlins/grin.gif


Just kidding. "Sup Bro" is what 2+2ers use to identify themselves online. It was a 10+1. I would not make the push against a random 10+1 player.

-Phoenix

[CWolf]

I'd push every time if you were on BB, phoenix.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif