I have aces up AND a nut flush draw, and the guy minraises me...

[creedofhubris]

Good 5/10 game. I ($1600) limp with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, weak-tight button ($1000) raises to $25, total of four players.

Flop:

2/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/heart.gif9/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Checked to button, who bets $35. Everyone calls. I call.

Turn:

A/images/graemlins/club.gif

Checked to me. I bet $150. Button min-raises to $300. Moron goes all-in for $350. Last player folds. I essentially close the turn action.

Button will have $600 behind after calling the short raise.

My move?

[Garland]

Easy push.

Garland

[9cao]

I disagree. If Villain knows that the all-in guy is a moron also, he will drop worse hands to your all-in and call with a set especially if he is weak-tight. However, if you just call he may put you on nut flush draw (not 2 pair and flush draw) and push or call with his AK. Pot will be big on river so he should call his last $600. If you get counterfitted, then it leaves a tough decision but I think calling is better than all-in.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
If Villain knows that the all-in guy is a moron also, he will drop worse hands to your all-in and call with a set especially if he is weak-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

The button has all the looks of AK that got there on the turn. Note the weak bet on the flop and finally comes to life on the turn with a flush and full house draw (most likely the best hand--if not the potential to be). Now's the time to get his action. Your equity in the hand is on the turn, not on the river when you could get counterfeited or a scare card comes to kill the action. $600 left for the button? Make him put it in now. If he folds, fine.

Garland

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
then it leaves a tough decision

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you push so you don't have to make that decision and so he can't get away if the flush comes. If the opponent raised pre-flop with a pocket pair and made a set on the flop or the turn w/AA then more power to him but you've got outs. It will often enough be the case where he has AK and made a standard continuation bet on the flop with same as the original raiser that those cases will make up for the times where you are in fact behind. Plus if he folds (and the min raise with a flush draw present indicates AK more than a set) then you also win the pots where he folds to your push but would have spiked a K on the river to beat you. I'd actually be more worried about the moron.

[RoboRob]

Is the button crafty enough to have 3 5 there?

[psuasskicker]

I think AA is a legit threat here. The problem is, if he doesn't have it, I'd be virtually positive your hand is good. The thing is, though, even if he does have it you're extremely live in this situation.

If you just call, I think - being that button is weak tight - you lose all equity if a spade comes off on the river. He's ONLY going to call an all in bet by you if you flush on the river if he's got AA. But he'll likely call an all in on the turn with quite a bit more than that.

You could always consider checking and checking on the river to see if he'll bet and call no matter what hits, but I personally think the fact that your opponent's weak tight means this will rarely get you much if anything more into the pot unless you're not best.

I personally prefer to simply move in here. Pot's huge, and you want his money if you're best, but I think if he'll fold to your moving in on the turn that you won't get any more money out of him on the river if your hand is currently or turns out to be best.

- C -

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the button crafty enough to have 3 5 there?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Weak-tight.

[RoboRob]

I really think he has a set here, 9's most likey or possibly AA. I would call to try to hit a spade and then value bet him.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
I really think he has a set here, 9's most likey or possibly AA. I would call to try to hit a spade and then value bet him.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he had a set he would be more concerned about charging a higher price for a flush draw to hit against two players, which actually suggests AK as him more likely holding. Also, generally, you value bet looser players not tighter ones capable of folding great hands that have gone sour on the river.

[RoboRob]

Not all players charge the proper amounts, after all there are many bad players out there.

[turnipmonster]

hmm, you think villian calls an allin with AK?
another point is her's flush is relatively well disguised, he has a lot better implied odds than if he could have a flush draw on the flop. I think an allin is ok and definitely my default against most players in this spot, but if it allows villian to fold hands we beat then I think it's probably a call.

[technologic]

in my opinion, a stop and go on the river is the best play.

if you figure him for AK, etc, and call the turn, barring any counterfeitage of your two pair, he will figure you for a draw, and make a "big call" on the river when you move in when you "miss." i think you get more money in this way when he has this hand, then if you raise the turn. raising the turn signifies too much strength, because you're saying you can beat the donk who moved in by moving in yourself. but stop and going the river indicates less strength, and you may be able to get him to pay you off.

if your flush card does come on the river, you want to bet as well, cause there is a good chance button just wants to see a showdown if that scare card comes.

so my vote is a stop and go, provided no nine comes to crap on your parade. check call maybe a K.

[soah]

He would have to be an idiot, or think that you are an idiot, if he believes that you would bluff into a dry side pot on the river with a totally busted hand.

[Rotating Rabbit]

I put this as an easy call.

Its effectively a way ahead way behind situation on the turn, because if he has a strong ace hes not likely to call here. He isnt folding any winning hand. Finally, hero isnt scared of any river, we've no reason to isolate. So call and push any river for his last 600.

[Ray Zee]

if he wont call on the turn why would he call on the river. so you may be giving him five or six outs a free card to win the whole pot and an extra 600. bad play to just call here. this isnt the time to get tricky trying to put thoughts into someones head that is simple minded.

[coltrane]

I think it completely comes down to your read of this villain and what you know about him.....he clearly either has a set or a big ace.....is he the type of guy to make a weak flop bet into three players with a missed AK and then raise with it after being bet into big on the turn?.....I've been in this exact situation before (two-pair and flush draw on the turn) and sometimes it was an easy push, and sometimes I called and then check/folded the river and was shown a set.....so, is this guy an idiot or is he the type who pretty much can only have a set here?.....

[technologic]

he minraised hero on a drawing board on the turn. i'd say that's pretty big indication of idiocy.

[creedofhubris]

I raised all-in. He called with top set of aces. All-in moron had a flush draw, further reducing my outs. River was no help.

I hadn't been playing with this guy long enough to realize exactly how tight-weak he was. (aka $25 preflop from the button is a real raise, $35 into a $100 pot is a real bet, a min-raise is immense strength.)

Oh well.

RaptRob, no points for you for correctly spotting his hand, since I think you were sitting at the table ;-)

[RoboRob]

Oh well, if I was I don't remember. Better luck next time though.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
All-in moron had a flush draw, further reducing my outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

But also adding to your pot odds in case you were in fact beat by the 3rd player as you were. The results do not change the fact that you made the best move for you by pushing, or that the guy with a set of As played badly by not charging a high enough price on a drawing board against two players.