Is it correct to push every edge?

[LotsOfOuts69]

4 people left in a winner take all STT. The chip stacks are:

UTG: 4000
Button: 2000
SB: 4000 (hero)
BB: 5000

100/200 blinds, folds to you in SB with A-10os.

You raise to 600, BB pushes.

Lets say you could see BB cards, he has KQ suited, that makes you 58/42 or close to it if you call. Obviously you have the best hand, obviously the pot odds say call.

But is there any merit to that fact that you may be a better player, you can steal better, you can play flops better...etc. I just hate playing for 80 minutes only to have to put my tourny life on the line as a 58/42 favorite. Or is it that I pay well to this point, and now I have to push these edges to finish the tourny.

It's just so frustrating to have the best hand the majority of the time when the money goes in at the ned and have someone who I don;t think is as good of player to get lucky cause he's willing to take the worst of it.

Anyway, flame away...

[citanul]

you might want to run this through an icm as your first step. i personally am not going to do it for you.

[pergesu]

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I just hate playing for 80 minutes only to have to put my tourny life on the line as a 58/42 favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]
Get used to it. That's how SNGs work.

In this particular hand, you should fold. You've got plenty of chips in relation to the blinds still, so there's no reason to put yourself in a position where you're a coinflip, 60/40, or maybe even dominated.

FE is your friend.

[LotsOfOuts69]

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you might want to run this through an icm as your first step. i personally am not going to do it for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I am talking about.

I have never used the ICM calculator but from what I have read it figures out calling or folding based on what % of prize you are expected to receive.

Well this is easy for a winner take all tourny:

Calling: (0.58)*8000 chips + (0.42*0 chips) = 4640

Folding: (1.00* 3200 chips) = 3200

Easy call. Or is it?

1st hand of tourny, 9 players 1500 chips each guy moves all in with AK suited, folds to you in big blind, you have 77.

Calling: (0.52*3000 chips) + (0.48*0 chips) = 1560

Folding: (1.00*1480 chips) = 1480

ICM would say this is a slight call but could go either way. I say this would be a horrible call and I would NEVER do it.

So in a winner take all tourny ICM would say, push every edge, especially the one with 4 people to go.

I ask, what edge would you accept for the level of player that you think you are?

--LoO

[citanul]

oh ho, i had missed the winner take all part of this. nh sir.

so yeah, in that case, i'd have to put hte guy on a range, make a decision, that would mostly be based on my ease of stealing up to that point most likely. if hte guy with a lot of chips who isn't you you believe will be giving you all his chips soon enough because he's a goofball, this is either a clear fold or a clear call due to his any ace tendencies.

citanul

[Seadood228]

but this is a winner take all. That changes things a lot.

[Ogre]

Easy call you are favored to double up and have over 50% of the chips.

[Seadood228]

A lot of this depends on the structure of the tournament as well. If it's a relatively slow SNG, pushing a small edge early on can be beneficial, especially if you are using $$$/hr considerations in you EV calculations.

Let's say this is an atypical 2 hour winner-take-all SNG. In this case the 77 call is not that bad as long as you know he has AK.. You don't and that's why you fold there /images/graemlins/smile.gif

In your above example, I'd beat him to the pot if I knew he had KQ. With stack sizes the way they are, I'd estimate your chance of winning around 30%. If you double here, you are probably looking at more than 60%, especially if you factor in save considerations (which would be a good idea to bring up if you win this allin).

[Bigwig]

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But is there any merit to that fact that you may be a better player, you can steal better, you can play flops better...etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. But all this usually doesn't amount to a 58/42 edge at this stage of the tournament. You take this edge in this spot everytime.

[Bigwig]

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In this particular hand, you should fold.

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/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Get better than 3:1 with AT vs the other blind?

I don't think so.

[pergesu]

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but this is a winner take all. That changes things a lot.

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Sure, but he only has to steal blinds twice to make up for what he just lost.

I cut my losses here, steal the next two hands, and wait for a better spot to bust someone/double up.

[Seadood228]

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I cut my losses here, steal the next two hands, and wait for a better spot to bust someone/double up.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incredibly hard to do in a WTA. Your opponents have very little to lose.

[DasLeben]

If you can put your opponent on a hand where you're even a slight favorite, you need to take the edge. I'll personally always take a 58/42 in this spot, since you're going to be able to dominate the table after crippling the BB.

Keep in mind also, that pushing back out of the BB is a common resteal move. There is a possibility that you're better than 58/42 here.

[LotsOfOuts69]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of this depends on the structure of the tournament as well. If it's a relatively slow SNG, pushing a small edge early on can be beneficial, especially if you are using $$$/hr considerations in you EV calculations.

Let's say this is an atypical 2 hour winner-take-all SNG. In this case the 77 call is not that bad as long as you know he has AK.. You don't and that's why you fold there /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't make sense to me, I would think the complete opposite, in a slow tourny, I would NEVER call that first hand edge of 52/48, it makes no sense. If it were a turbo, I would maybe consider it.

[LotsOfOuts69]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can put your opponent on a hand where you're even a slight favorite, you need to take the edge. I'll personally always take a 58/42 in this spot, since you're going to be able to dominate the table after crippling the BB.

Keep in mind also, that pushing back out of the BB is a common resteal move. There is a possibility that you're better than 58/42 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I know, I called, he had KQ and spiked two kings. Thats when I started thinking it was a bad call, cause I was lucky he only had KQ, and then I started to think, even if I know he has KQ, should I call... Odds tell me yes, but I still feel I could have found a better spot

[DasLeben]

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Odds tell me yes, but I still feel I could have found a better spot

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If this was a 50/30/20 payout, than I'd agree. Here, no.

[Bigwig]

Gah. My reading skills have gone to crap. I thought the BB was the short stack. So you're not getting 3:1.

Regardless, I probably still call vs an aggressive opponent, maybe fold vs. a tight one.