Three deuces

[Jakesta]

Did I pussy out on the river? I admit I was scared of the straight, so I called down.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, CO calls, BB calls.

River: (19 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 22 BB

[Paradigm]

raise the river

[Jakesta]

I thought about it, but I thought there was only a 20% chance of CO calling two cold, but I knew he would call one.

Does this make my decision better?

[Jaran]

w/CO still in, I kinda like calling the river. If it were hu, I'd be tempted to throw in one more raise.

-Jaran

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
w/CO still in, I kinda like calling the river. If it were hu, I'd be tempted to throw in one more raise.

-Jaran

[/ QUOTE ]

And you said you were rusty.

OP: I like the entire hand.

[Marquis]

It sure looks like he has a K in his hand the way he played it. I'd think any hand that had you beat would check-raise the turn (although at this level, who knows). That said, he really likes his hand so going for the overcall is cool.

You should've cut the river action off so we couldn't see that the overcall worked. CO could be on the FD and he may fold no matter what you do.

[johnc]

[ QUOTE ]
raise the river

[/ QUOTE ]

[bozlax]

Raise the river. When you called you got CO to overcall, so there was one more bet in the pot. If you raise, yeah, you might lose CO, but you're at least going to get called by BB (who capped the turn and bet out again on the river, remember), so you'll make up the bet, and you might get 3-bet by BB which will allow you to cap putting 2 more bets in.

Raising doesn't lose you anything and potentially gains you 2 bets. Raise.

Edit: on another look, it is entirely possible that BB was on a flush draw on the turn, ace-rag of spades, and that his river bet was a bluff. In that case you might raise and lose both of them. So be it, I'll take the chance of losing 1 to get 2 more in, hoping he's playing two-pair with the king, rather than settling for just 1 more.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: on another look, it is entirely possible that BB was on a flush draw on the turn, ace-rag of spades, and that his river bet was a bluff. In that case you might raise and lose both of them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe you shouldn't have had another look? Giving BB any chance of having a flush draw and bluff betting the river is pretty terrible hand reading. I'm not trying to be an ass.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising doesn't lose you anything and potentially gains you 2 bets. Raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the times he's losing?

Most likely the OP will get one more bet out of a worse hand from the BB, but he'll also open himself up to get 3-bet by a better one, which kinda sucks.

By calling he might still win that one bet (from the CO), but he won't re-open the action.

If the BB was a Corky and would go to war on the river with a worse hand, that's a different story; but since it wasn't mentioned that he was, I'm assuming he's not.

I think the river play is okay.

[AmarilloJim1]

[ QUOTE ]
raise the river

[/ QUOTE ]

[bozlax]

So you and Miles are giving Villan credit for, what, KK? Even micro-gorks will raise that PF. 88? Then what was the business on the turn? 66? 33? 54? Any of those would have come alive on the flop, or check/raised the turn, not bet out the turn. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to be shown KT by BB and a busted club flush by CO.

My take on this hand, speaking as Hero, is that MHIG. If I raise the river and BB 3-bets, I'm capping, so I'd actually appreciate being 3-bet.

[scott2130]

I put the BB on two pair, say K6. The fact that he was willing to cap the turn means he will probably 3-bet the river. With that said I like the call on the river, because a 3-bet with the possible straight is to high a price IMO.

[milesdyson]

Note that I never commented on the river action itself. I simply said that you thinking there's any decent chance that BB is betting and 3-betting the turn with a flush draw is bad hand reading.

I will say that capping the river if BB 3-bets is also terrible.

[AmarilloJim1]

I agree...we are only scared of 54 or KK...66...or 33...this is a definate raise IMO.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Most likely the OP will get one more bet out of a worse hand from the BB, but he'll also open himself up to get 3-bet by a better one, which kinda sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I know I already responded to this, but I just can't believe that you think BB has a better hand, given the relatively small number of better hands that anyone, Corky or not, would play like this against the vast array of worse hands that would be played like this.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Note that I never commented on the river action itself. I simply said that you thinking there's any decent chance that BB is betting and 3-betting the turn with a flush draw is bad hand reading.

I will say that capping the river if BB 3-bets is also terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said that BB would 3-bet with a busted flush draw. I only said it's possible he bluffed his first bet with a busted flush, and that you might wind up losing a bet by raising because if that was the case you'd lose both of them.

What are you giving BB credit for? It has to be a hand that beats you, and that he'd slow-play preflop and flop but come alive with when a king falls on the turn. Now think of how many worse hands than yours BB would play this way on this board...KJo, anyone? KQo? K6s?

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
So you and Miles are giving Villan credit for, what, KK? Even micro-gorks will raise that PF. 88? Then what was the business on the turn? 66? 33? 54? Any of those would have come alive on the flop, or check/raised the turn, not bet out the turn. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to be shown KT by BB and a busted club flush by CO.

My take on this hand, speaking as Hero, is that MHIG. If I raise the river and BB 3-bets, I'm capping, so I'd actually appreciate being 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's possible to narrow down the villian's hands too narrowly, all I'm saying is that if I raise the river and get 3-bet I'm not loving my set of deuces.

I would rather take the chance of the CO overcalling and winning an extra bet that way than trying to squeeze one out of the BB.

And again, if the BB is a retard who's willing to 3-bet the river with two-pair or worse it's a different story. I'm just assuming he isn't. (If he's willing to cap the turn and lead the river w/ KT, he might be this guy, but I dunno.)

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
At this level he could have bet an open-ended draw the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

But he couldn't have had an open-ended draw that got made by the 8 on the river. Either he has 54 and his hand is made on the flop (BB special, possible, and if he slow-played the flop and then doinked us on the turn like that I'll have to make a note that he's better than average), or he didn't have an OESD.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
And again, if the BB is a retard who's willing to 3-bet the river with two-pair or worse it's a different story. I'm just assuming he isn't. (If he's willing to cap the turn and lead the river w/ KT, he might be this guy, but I dunno.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you 3-bet the river if you were holding K6? If you were an average micro player, you'd 3-bet this river with KJ. K8, you think you just hit the jackpot.

I'm just saying that there are a lot of worse hands than a set of deuces that I can see being played like this that we beat, and really only 1 (54 checked in BB) I can see being played like this that we lose to, and even that assumes that the Villan is better than average, not worse.

[scott2130]

Yikes, I read that one wrong. It's hard to work and post on Fridays.

[bozlax]

Lucky for us all that I don't work /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you 3-bet the river if you were holding K6? If you were an average micro player, you'd 3-bet this river with KJ.

[/ QUOTE ]
The average player bets and 3-bets the turn and river with KJ here after the turn was capped?! Be serious.

[Jakesta]

Thanks for the responses guys.

BB turned over K6o for two pair, and MHIG. I still liked going for the overcall on the river though.

[AmarilloJim1]

LOL....nh

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the responses guys.

BB turned over K6o for two pair, and MHIG. I still liked going for the overcall on the river though.

[/ QUOTE ]
The more pertinent results-oriented thinking is based on what the overcaller held and whether or not he would coldcall two on the river.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you 3-bet the river if you were holding K6? If you were an average micro player, you'd 3-bet this river with KJ.

[/ QUOTE ]
The average player bets and 3-bets the turn and river with KJ here after the turn was capped?! Be serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

In .25/.50? I am.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
In .25/.50? I am.

[/ QUOTE ]
Meh, I didn't even look at the limits, but you're still wrong. The average 0.25/0.50 player will not go 4 bets on the turn and 3 on the river with only top pair.

[Jakesta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the responses guys.

BB turned over K6o for two pair, and MHIG. I still liked going for the overcall on the river though.

[/ QUOTE ]
The more pertinent results-oriented thinking is based on what the overcaller held and whether or not he would coldcall two on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

CO mucked K5o.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the responses guys.

BB turned over K6o for two pair, and MHIG. I still liked going for the overcall on the river though.

[/ QUOTE ]
The more pertinent results-oriented thinking is based on what the overcaller held and whether or not he would coldcall two on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

...and, was the overcaller on a draw and folding to one bet, regardless, AND, if the overcaller folded, would BB fold to one more bet? If not, your results are the same, or better.

Since we're being results-oriented, now.