Dumb dumb head

[bicyclekick]

30/60 Canterbury with Red_Rain sweating me.

Antwon Winfield opens in the HJ, I 3 bet A/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif right behind him, Schneids 4 bets out of the SB, Antwon calls, I call.

Flop K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Schneids bets, Antwon raises, I call, schneids 3 bets, antwon calls, 4 bet or call?

/edit: 5 bet cap btw.

[IndieMatty]

Is there anyway Schneids is checking the turn? Does' a 4 bet really matter? (I 4 bet and berate Antwon Winfield for screwing the Jets over last year)

[Turning Stone Pro]

I just call so you can pop it when the turn makes your hand. I hate capping the flop here, making your hand on the turn, and have all check to you. Takes the fun out of it.

TSP

[Nate tha' Great]

It'd be an easy 4-bet if that closed the action. With the 5-bet cap, I think I prefer a call.

[flawless_victory]

i would just call if i somehow had played it like you, but i would threebet the flop myself 100% of the time. i think that jamming the flop is easily the best play. once you coldcall, fourbettings really going to give away your hand and kill your action if you get there on fourth...

[tomahawk]

Yeah my gut tells me call because you have position, and fourbet if you don't. I am really not sure why.

If you make it four, and don't make your hand, do you check it through or fire again (assuming it's checked to you, which I don't think is a given) ?

Nate, how so? Wouldn't 5 bets be good, valuewise? Or are you afraid to lose somebody?

seriously, there are too many factors to consider here for me to make an even remotly useful response, so I'll stop trying /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
30/60 Canterbury with Red_Rain sweating me.

Antwon Winfield opens in the HJ, I 3 bet A/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif right behind him, Schneids 4 bets out of the SB, Antwon calls, I call.

Flop K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Schneids bets, Antwon raises, I call, schneids 3 bets, antwon calls, 4 bet or call?

/edit: 5 bet cap btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would Schneids do that with merely TPTK? I doubt it, but if so, cap it off as IMO you have an equity edge and Twan is trapped in the middle there. If you fear a set, just call.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
Dumb dumb head

[/ QUOTE ]

That's all I have to say on the subject.

[stankphish]

Are you betting here b/c the strong draw gives you a pot equity edge? You have 12 outs to the nuts so that makes you about 3-1 against making your hand on the next card. What im getting at is how strong of a draw/how many callers do you need for betting on the come to be +EV?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah my gut tells me call because you have position, and fourbet if you don't. I am really not sure why.

If you make it four, and don't make your hand, do you check it through or fire again (assuming it's checked to you, which I don't think is a given) ?

Nate, how so? Wouldn't 5 bets be good, valuewise? Or are you afraid to lose somebody?

seriously, there are too many factors to consider here for me to make an even remotly useful response, so I'll stop trying /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The call-reraise is not scary enough to deter Schneids from 5-betting if he has QQ/KK, which have become quite likely holdings, but probably is scary enough to get Dave Winfield to fold if it's two bets back to him. BK is not getting the best of it heads up against a set, and there's a good chance that will be the result if he 4-bets here. Also, if he does improve, he'd much rather be bet into on the turn.

[tomahawk]

yep, you're right. Thanks for the explanation.

[McGahee]

Is Winfield a cool guy?
And how did he suddenly have hands last year (not those kind of hands). He could never catch a cold in Buffalo to save his life.

[bicyclekick]

Probably one of the nicest characters at a poker table. He's always smiling and laughing...even when he takes bad beats. Tips real well, too. Great guy. He's getting better at poker, too.

[I_am_B]

[ QUOTE ]
That's all I have to say on the subject.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate tha' Great's analysis is spot on, but Schneider is sneering because nobody is taking into account that Schneider knows how BK plays and that BK will never 4-bet the flop like that with a set in that spot and 50+% of the time is probably on a draw or has an inferior hand. I can see Schneids 3-betting AK/AA/KK/QQ or worse hands if he thinks Winfield will muck his K or Q on the turn and knows BK is on the draw from his flop cold-call (you never know with Schneids, believe me). 4-betting here will kill all possible deceptive postflop action--Schneids would def check-call all flush cards.

Regarding whether to come out 3-betting on the spot, I think it depends on the image you want to portray at that moment. Reraising is aggressive and gives you the potential free turn-card, while cold-calling really doesn't work out too bad since you can trap-raise them both on the turn with Mike's 3-bet when you hit the turn. I don't think it's a major decision, though 3-betting with a draw here sets up a stronger value 3-bet on a future round, regardless of the outcome of this hand. Like most authors, I won't put my hard stamp on any specific action, but as usual I'm bantering with ya, BK. Hand outcome? Did Schneider catch the river boat? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Gamblor]

with 12 outs to the nuts i'd put in as many bets as possible 3-ways.

if i hit the turn i bet, if i miss i might get a free card.

"twan" looks like hes going nowhere (even if schneids caps it) for 2 bets more getting 25-1.

[Emoney]

11 outs to the nuts. one more to the nut flush, way too much value. PUMP IT!

if it were a 4 cap then i wouldn't like it as much because it makes your hand too obvious. but i think schneids is capping (5-bet) with KK or QQ so you could still get bet into on the turn even if you make your hand, especially if a T falls.

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you betting here b/c the strong draw gives you a pot equity edge? You have 12 outs to the nuts so that makes you about 3-1 against making your hand on the next card. What im getting at is how strong of a draw/how many callers do you need for betting on the come to be +EV?

[/ QUOTE ]

there are two more cards to come.

[Emoney]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you betting here b/c the strong draw gives you a pot equity edge? You have 12 outs to the nuts so that makes you about 3-1 against making your hand on the next card. What im getting at is how strong of a draw/how many callers do you need for betting on the come to be +EV?

[/ QUOTE ]

the +EV isn't in question. if it were only that then it's a must raise. with 11 outs he's 1.4:1 to get there. 1.2:1 at 12 outs. either way he's getting value with two players. the only thing to be wondered is whether or not he can disguise his hand with his line. if he makes his hand and doesn't get action then he only makes what he gets on the flop.

[Schneids]

IMO call-reraising the flop would be better here if he had AK with the ace of spades rather than AsJs. Especially considering how the rest of the hand played out...

[bicyclekick]

I don't know what inspired me to 4 bet, but it's a really stupid 4 bet. It really gives my hand away and now I just killed my action for when a spade came. Schneids gives less free cards than anyone I know, so he's definately not giving me one here.

The turn was a non-spade, he bet and we both called. The river was a spade and antwon bet, I raised, mike folded and he called. He said he had a lower flush (and he doesn't lie).

Just calling the 3 bet is by far the best play, as is just calling 2 cold.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]

Just calling the 3 bet is by far the best play, as is just calling 2 cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's impossible for just calling the 3-bet to be "by far" the best play.

I'm not sold that coldcalling is better than 3-betting initially either. Frankly, it doesn't matter a whole lot how you play it as long as you don't fold when you have that much equity.

[bicyclekick]

It's opponent specific clark. There are opponents where 4 betting is clearly the best play. Mike and I have played tens of thousands of hands together, and maybe I should have been more clear in my last post that it's because of how he plays. He's a great hand reader and he doesn't give free cards.

3 betting the flop is better than 4 betting the flop there. 3 betting would have been fine, but I still think calling vs him is better.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
He's a great hand reader and he doesn't give free cards.

3 betting the flop is better than 4 betting the flop there. 3 betting would have been fine, but I still think calling vs him is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's impossible to "never give free cards" and not be exploitable. If you are so readable that you'd never play a made hand here fast then that's bad too.

Anyways, 4-betting can't possibly be "clearly" wrong regardless of opponent because of your equity. I agree that it gives your hand away, but that's why I prefer just 3-betting in the first place. Unless he'd never 4-bet preflop there with 99-JJ, in which case I agree that calling is ok.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He's a great hand reader and he doesn't give free cards.

3 betting the flop is better than 4 betting the flop there. 3 betting would have been fine, but I still think calling vs him is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's impossible to "never give free cards" and not be exploitable. If you are so readable that you'd never play a made hand here fast then that's bad too.

Anyways, 4-betting can't possibly be "clearly" wrong regardless of opponent because of your equity. I agree that it gives your hand away, but that's why I prefer just 3-betting in the first place. Unless he'd never 4-bet preflop there with 99-JJ, in which case I agree that calling is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is kind of why I said it'd be better for BK to call reraise with As K than with AsJs.

He needs to do that crap so I can't check with the intent of folding the river when the river brought a third spade.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He's a great hand reader and he doesn't give free cards.

3 betting the flop is better than 4 betting the flop there. 3 betting would have been fine, but I still think calling vs him is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's impossible to "never give free cards" and not be exploitable. If you are so readable that you'd never play a made hand here fast then that's bad too.

Anyways, 4-betting can't possibly be "clearly" wrong regardless of opponent because of your equity. I agree that it gives your hand away, but that's why I prefer just 3-betting in the first place. Unless he'd never 4-bet preflop there with 99-JJ, in which case I agree that calling is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is kind of why I said it'd be better for BK to call reraise with As K than with AsJs.

He needs to do that crap so I can't check with the intent of folding the river when the river brought a third spade.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. There's entirely too many absolutes being bandied about in this thread which makes me think there are some balancing issues that could be tweaked.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]

Right. There's entirely too many absolutes being bandied about in this thread which makes me think there are some balancing issues that could be tweaked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't agree more. As much as I loathe admitting this because he's going to rub it in my face for eternity...even though I have gotten some back lately by outplaying him big time on a few hands, but in general mike owns me at the tables. I'm working ont he balancing act, but he's usually a step ahead of me. He just plays so damn well.

[Schneids]

Clark I balance my play fine it's BK who doesn't think I do that contributes to my monthly earn against him.

[shmahappens]

Off topic... But I can't read your posts because I'm watching that video over and over, the more I watch the funnier it gets.

[mike l.]

if he never gives free cards then you need to punish him by raising the turn more, both when you have a very strong semibluff drawing hand and when you have the goods. this way when you put the 4 bets in on the flop with QQ and he has AA he loses not just the extra bet on the flop but the extra bet on the turn as well. and the times you have AJs he has to start to question what mess he's gotten himself into, plus muck something like AQ or whatever sometimes. even if there's only the smallest chance that last part happens it's just icing to the meta game stuff those turn raises give you.

use your position against stop and go specialists who are thinking.

[Subfallen]

Thx for the great post mike.

[sfer]

Given the preflop action, I think call/4-betting gives your hand away to Schneids and kills your ability to get him out of line later if you make a nut hand.

[spoohunter]

Why not just three bet right away? Sure you've got zero folding equity but if you get the chance to five bet you might get a free card (not really free :P) but you've got to be +Equity on the flop any way.