Top Pair against coordinated board

[Atropos]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP ($72.5)
Hero ($172.7)
Button ($101.3)
SB ($37.2)
BB ($130.8)
UTG ($104.5)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3</font>, Button calls $3, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($7.50) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $3</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $9</font>, Button calls $6.

Turn: ($25.50) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $15</font>, Button calls $15.

River: ($55.50) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $15</font>, Button calls $15.

Final Pot: $85.50

[Atropos]

Is check-raising vulnerable hands ever a good idea or rather a bad habit from playing too much limit holdem?

[Atropos]

Sorry for pushing this hand up again but I really need some help here, especially at the turn and at the river I was totally lost. That's why I bet so small at the river and hoped for a fold, but I probably should have bet more to achieve that.

[Simplistic]

what range of hands do you put him on where he calls the flop raise and turn?

out of position you're in a bad spot, blocking bet on the river or check

[Atropos]

I dont know exactly what a blocking bet is. Is it something like a bet big enough that a reasonable player wont raise you without any holding? How big should a blocking bet be here?

[jhall23]

I don't like the check/raise on the flop with just TPTK as you are inflating the pot with TPTK. It also seems weird when you were the pre-flop raiser. I don't play much limit but it definetly seems like a better limit move in the risk/reward department.

I think either betting out at the flop (3/4 - full pot depending on what you standard follow up is HU) or check calling the flop and then leading the turn are better.

You've got the right idea on what a blocking bet is. The purpose is for when you don't know exactly where you stand in the hand. If it get's raised you then fold. In general it should look like what you would make as a typical value bet so they can't read it for what it is. Maybe most at this level won't recognize it and then raise you on a bluff, don't know. I'd say at least 1/3 pot to 1/2 pot is a good size. I think it should be at least 20 in this spot but it looks like it served it's purpose here for just 15. Another alternative is to check call and let an aggressive opponent bluff a missed draw. Your hand isn't super strong here so you wouldn't mind a check behind.

I honestly don't know what villian called you with here. I can't see many hands a good player would still be around with that you beat, but you might have caught some fool with KQ or something.

[Atropos]

"I don't like the check/raise on the flop with just TPTK as you are inflating the pot with TPTK. It also seems weird when you were the pre-flop raiser."

Thx, I think this could be a very important point for me. You say that TPTK is a very vulnerable hand in NL and therefore I should not try to extract too much value from it, because the risk is too high? It seems to me that NL is really a game of huge hands like Flushes, Straights, Two Pair, Set.

"Another alternative is to check call and let an aggressive opponent bluff a missed draw."

Good idea. I hate checking river because it's a sign of complete weakness and if the opponent pushes all-in I look forward to some tough call/fold decisions. However in this hand, my hand is so weak I dont care if I have to fold.

"I honestly don't know what villian called you with here. I can't see many hands a good player would still be around with that you beat"

I dont think he was a particularly good player or that he played the hand well but I lost to him - 65o.

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
"I don't like the check/raise on the flop with just TPTK as you are inflating the pot with TPTK. It also seems weird when you were the pre-flop raiser."

Thx, I think this could be a very important point for me. You say that TPTK is a very vulnerable hand in NL and therefore I should not try to extract too much value from it, because the risk is too high? It seems to me that NL is really a game of huge hands like Flushes, Straights, Two Pair, Set.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that you can't get good value out of TPTK but unless someone is clueless you want to try and keep the pot managable and win a small to medium sized pot. The check raise on the flop is a weird move after you are the pre-flop raiser. Typically a check raise shows a ton of strength so any hand that is likely to stick around with you is more likely to be able to beat a TPTK like hand. The hands you get value from will usually bail to this move.

[ QUOTE ]

"Another alternative is to check call and let an aggressive opponent bluff a missed draw."

Good idea. I hate checking river because it's a sign of complete weakness and if the opponent pushes all-in I look forward to some tough call/fold decisions. However in this hand, my hand is so weak I dont care if I have to fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

The check/call line is one of the best things I've learned after reading these forums. Works great in the right situation with an aggro opponent who will bluff missed draws.
Not saying it is necessarilly the best move here since I don't know anything about the villian but it is just something to consider. Your blocking bet here worked pretty good as I imagine that opponnent would have bet more than 15 here.

[ QUOTE ]


"I honestly don't know what villian called you with here. I can't see many hands a good player would still be around with that you beat"

I dont think he was a particularly good player or that he played the hand well but I lost to him - 65o.

[/ QUOTE ]

56s was my guess. It would be really weak for him to not raise somewhere with 55 or 66. With position I don't think villians play is so bad since you guys both have full 100 bb stacks. I would fold pre-flop some of the time but also call some of the time. If he ended up here with KQ then his play would be pretty bad.

[Atropos]

"56s was my guess. It would be really weak for him to not raise somewhere with 55 or 66. With position I don't think villians play is so bad since you guys both have full 100 bb stacks."

Yeah preflop play is probably fine, though I like coldcalling with suited stuff better than offsuit connectors. But at the flop/turn/river I think he has to raise somewhere if he wants to make the most money.

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
"56s was my guess. It would be really weak for him to not raise somewhere with 55 or 66. With position I don't think villians play is so bad since you guys both have full 100 bb stacks."

Yeah preflop play is probably fine, though I like coldcalling with suited stuff better than offsuit connectors. But at the flop/turn/river I think he has to raise somewhere if he wants to make the most money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your weird flop check-raise probably had him confused and he didn't know where he was at /images/graemlins/smirk.gif. Since all he beats is top pair or an overpair he would be scared to raise you as only a better hand would be likely to call him.