4 Flush vs. 4 Flush

[Zoe's Echo]

In playing in a high only - $1/$2 game on Paradise $0.25 ante, $0.50 forced - I ran into an interesting situation that I was hoping for some feedback on.

In last postion, with (Jc,10c)Kc - all clubs, Js and Ks live - I complete to $1 dollar. Four of us see 4th street, with the boards in this semblance -

(?,?) 2h
(?,?) 10h
(?,?) 3s
(Jc,10c)Kc

I catch the 4c the opener catches the As, the 10h catches 7d, while the 3s catchs the 7s. Boards are:

(?,?) 2h,As
(?,?) 10h,7d
(?,?) 3s,7s
(Jc,10c)Kc,4c

Checked to me and I open for $1, As folds, 10h calls, 7s raises to $2, I reraise to $3 (10h drops) - 7s caps.

At this point I am thinking 4 flush to 4 flush with all of my Ks and Js live.

5th Street:

(?,?) 3s,7s,Ad
(Jc,10c)Kc,4c,6s

Spades open for $2 - I assume that he does not have a pair at this point. A set of 7s unlikely as one was out, the As was folded, rolled up 3s also unlikely as one was folded on 3rd and now I hold his straight flush card. I raise and it gets capped.

6th Street:

(?,?) 3s,7s,Ad,8c
(Jc,10c)Kc,4c,6s,7h

He bets - my move??

Any thoughts appreciated results to follow.

Good Luck!

[B-Man]

I'm not sure what your question is on 6th street--are you thinking of folding or raising? It seems like an automatic call to me. You can't fold the 4-flush with all of those bets in the pot, and what would be the point of raising in this situation?

Also, I am wondering why you re-raised on 4th street and knocked out the 10h. It seems to me you want that player in the hand.

[Zoe's Echo]

The question on 6th was calling versus raising.

As for the 10h, my thinking in not worry about the raise was that the spade draw had already indicated that it was going to be expensive to draw and his raise may have already knocked him out. Also, if I smooth call and catch a 3rd club on 5th his action is dead anyway and the spade draw might slow down considerably as well. I wanted as much money in the pot as possible with a strong favorite.

I also wasn't sure what he called the first bet with - if he is calling with a 10h against a raised Kc there must be something to his hand. I would rather charge the draw at that point and get heads up so that I could win the pot with a larger range of hands (i.e. pair of K's against a busted spade draw).

That was my thinking.

[Zoe's Echo]

Hero on 6th street flat called. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

My overcards have not materialized and there is no telling what his undercards were (except that they were spades) and he may have even paired the 8 as I had yet to see one.

7th he bets and I have not improved. I made a pure information call. The 8 on 6th paired him and he made an 8 high flush on 7th.

This was a case where I feel the better hand lost but should I have raised on 6th street?

My thinking at the time was that the pot was big enough already so that there would be no folding and with no pair I felt my status as "favorite" slipping quickly.

Thinking back now - I knew on 6th that he had not made his flush and if he/she puts me on at least a pair of K's if I raise 6th and if I bet if checked to on the river I could win with no pair.

However, he would not have folded for a raise on 6th and might have re-raised if he put me on a flush draw as all of my board cards were lower than his pair of 8s.

In conclusion, I think I might have been better to raise though as my check affirms the flush draw and will encourage him to bet with many non-flush hands on the river.

One of those hands I hope to learn from.

[Ray Zee]

you called on the end and couldnt beat his board. thats crazy unless you are in a room that gives you your bet back. you wasted a whole hours work just to see his hand that you already read correctly.
the best way to play the hand was call on sixth and fold the river. or if you thought he might or might not fold an ace or pair, raise on sixth and bet the river no matter what you get especially since you are going to throw away a bet anyway on the end.

[Andy B]

Without reading the results, your raise on third is good. Obviously you bet fourth after it's checked to you, but when the 3/forums/images/icons/spade.gif7/forums/images/icons/spade.gif check-raises, I think I just call and let T/forums/images/icons/heart.gif7/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif call. Knocking him out isn't bad, though. When 3/forums/images/icons/spade.gif7/forums/images/icons/spade.gif caps it, I figure him for a set or a straight-flush draw. An Ace-high flush draw would ordinarily be a possible hand, but the A/forums/images/icons/spade.gif is out. It should be apparent at this point that this hand is going to the river.

I don't understand all the raising on fifth street. Maybe the other guy doesn't have a pair, but neither do you. If he, in fact, started with a straight-flush draw, he has now picked up a double belly-buster straight draw (54)73A. And his Ace-high is currently good. I ran this on twodimes.net, and I was somewhat surprised to learn that you're a small favorite. Your clubs are more live, and you have several high cards to pair, as opposed to his dead Ace. I still wouldn't jam here, though, as it's entirely possible that he has a set or something.

On sixth, though, you only have a call. He is now the favorite (if my read is right; we'll see if my hand-reading skills have improved since my response to B-Man), as it is more likely that Ace-freaking-high is going to take down this pot. Hope you hit.

[CJC]

INFORMATIONAL CALL? /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

Please let me know when you go up to Foxwoods or Mohegan.

I welcome all informational calls. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

CJ

[B-Man]

You'll like this one C.J.:

In the $75-150 game at Foxwoods a few months ago, a regular and a semi-regular (who is there most weekends, but plays anything from 10-20 to 75-150) were involved in a heads-up hand. Neither board was scary, but there was a decent sized pot at the end.

Player A bet $150 on the river, Player B, looked, paused, then raised to $300. Player A called.

Neither wanted to show their hand first, but finally Player B showed a pair of deuces... which was the best hand! Player A had Ace-high and said, "I knew you didn't have anything; I called because I wanted to see the hand."

[Zoe's Echo]

Thanks to everyone who replied for your responses - they should help in the future.

The reason for my "informational call" that was widely questioned was that at my current limit I spend an awful lot of time competing against the same people. I was truly interested into what range of hands this player would act so brazenly on - did he in fact make a one out set early on? was he rolled? - the call was to try an establish parameters. The "hour" that I threw away will hopefully be made up quickly once I get a better handle on a player like this. Knowing what his holdings are and knowing that he will freely send money into the pot with a relatively dominated hand on early streets should provide lots of opportunity to restore the lost BB.

It didn't look at is as a crying call since I knew full well (as Ray Zee pointed out) that I couldn't even beat his board.

Andy B - You asked why I jammed it on 5th and my thinking at the time was as follows:

1) I raised on 3rd and this player most likely put me on split Kings which explains his agression on 4th - I don't think that he would have been as active if he knew he was facing a K high 4 flush with his A dead.

2) I had a strong read that he was on a flush draw and though the A puts his hand ahead of mine at the time there were at least two A spent and (to my knowledge) all of my /forums/images/icons/club.gif s (9) all of my K's (3) and J's (3) were live - figured 15 outs to the money.

3) I knew that the straight flush opportunity was dead on 5th as well.

These reasons are why I went to war on 5th - your run at twodimes supports it but by a smaller margin then I had estimated while in the hand.

You are probably right that my hand was not worth four bets with the possibility my opponent having a set but I trusted my read. I did not fear the straight because with two cards to come I was still extremely confident that I would hit one of my flush cards. I guess I was only getting 4:1 on this so I need not have made more contributions on 5th.

After reading your responses, I agree that the correct play is to only call on sixth.

Thanks Again

[CJC]

/forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Michael Davis]

I didn't check the live cards, but you are generally about 2:1 to make a flush with a four flush on fifth street.

Also, some of your thinking in the last paragraph is flawed. As an extreme, suppose you had a 99% accuracy on your read, but your read put you at a 50.01-49.99% favorite. Even if you trust your read, you should not raise here if you will be an underdog the 1% of the time you are beaten. You were a small favorite, at best, on 5th street, and the chances that your opponent had trips were decent. Capping it doesn't make sense.

Mike