Checkraised on a terrible flop

[Ghazban]

UB .25/.50 blinds, villain and I both have about $50. I have him covered by a buck or two.

I'm UTG+3 w/ A/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif

Villain openraises to $1.75 UTG+1, I reraise to $6. All fold to him and he calls.

Flop K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (~$12.75 less rake)

He checks, I bet $12.75, he pushes for ~$42 total. I know I'll see AdKx and QdQx much of the time, KK/99/33 sometimes, and AdQd rarely (players at these stakes will often slowplay the flopped nut flush). Given that I can't be ahead by all that much and I might be way behind, do I have to fold this?

[amoeba]

if you think he is liable to do this with a naked Ad, I would call, otherwise I fold.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Easiest check behind on the flop I have ever seen.

[Leaky Game]

I probably fold although I've become weaker and weaker with an overpair/TPTK in large pots.

I think he's got top pair with a high diamond. Let's say A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK...so he's got two shots at 11 outs...what is that like 35-40%? The problem comes in that you're drawing to 2 outs if he's got a set. Now that I think about it, I'd probably pay him off if he flopped the set and hope another diamond doesn't pop. If you really think he's still on a draw, you have to call.

I'm admittedly weak in these spots, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
Easiest check behind on the flop I have ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do if he bets into you on a blank turn?

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easiest check behind on the flop I have ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do if he bets into you on a blank turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
Call.

[Ghazban]

And on the river?

[thegoose420]

I hate having to lay down AA, but i think this is one of the times when you have to. at this level players generally slow play the nut flush, and since the villian seems kinda aggressive, i would say you are way behind.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
And on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
Call.

[Ghazban]

How is checking behind on the flop and then calling off your stack any different than betting the flop and calling an all-in checkraise? I think you win less against a naked ace of diamonds (as they won't put any more in on the river but would've been all-in sooner) but still lose when you're behind. Is it worth it to take this line just so you can fold if a 4th diamond hits?

[TheWorstPlayer]

Who's folding if a fourth diamond hits?

[amoeba]

actually I take back what I said.

with what you've invested, you pretty much have to call.

I agree with TheWorstPlayer's line.

[Ghazban]

OK, please explain to me why you prefer a check behind, call, call line. I originally assumed you were folding to a 4th diamond as we don't have one but I guess that's not what you had in mind.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, please explain to me why you prefer a check behind, call, call line. I originally assumed you were folding to a 4th diamond as we don't have one but I guess that's not what you had in mind.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, you are villain with KK, how do you play? You are villain with QQ, how do you play? You are villain with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifKx how do you play? You are villain with AxKx how do you play? Etc. Work out how he plays each possible hand and my belief is that you will win more/lose less by checking the flop, calling when bet into, betting if checked to on the turn, calling the river if bet into, checking behind on the river if checked to. No matter what hits. If a diamond hits the turn and he bets turn AND river, I might fold.

[Ghazban]

I will have to think about this. My gut feeling is that I'll win a bunch of smaller pots to strong one-diamond hands (like QdQx and AdX) and lose just as much to the flopped flush or a flopped set. I could be wrong...

[TheWorstPlayer]

If your check convinces someone to bluff off their stack once who would have just check/folded the flop, that makes up for one time you lose your stack to the flopped flush. Your way you lose your stack to the flopped flush, but never take a bluffer's stack. Also, if he has Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQx and no diamond hits the turn, he won't have odds to call your turn bet, but he often will anyways (since he may be ahead, right?) By betting the flop, you are basically saying you have TPTK and he can play optimally. You can very very hardly be hurt by a free card since if he has the ace of diamonds he is going to call any flop bet anyways and he may c/r which puts you to a tough decision. I admit I haven't thought this out in its entirety, but my instinct is telling me that this is a very easy check behind. If you think out all the possibilities and come to a definite conclusion, definitely let me know your results. I'll think ahout it more, too, when I get the time.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
You can very very hardly be hurt by a free card since if he has the ace of diamonds he is going to call any flop bet anyways...

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't thought too much about this yet, but I don't like this statement. If he's going to call whatever I bet with just the ace of diamonds, I absolutely definitely want to bet here. The fear of a checkraise is not a good enough reason to not bet in my opinion. Also, a free card hurts me quite a bit as any diamond will either kill my action (if he has AK with no diamond, for example) or kill my hand (if he's got a diamond).

And totally off topic, I just got the first royal flush of my life /images/graemlins/grin.gif Over 55K hands online since I got pokertracker plus whatever live and pre-PT playing I've done and this was the first to happen at my table (and I was lucky enough to be the one having it)

[edge]

I bet the flop and call a checkraise all-in. You're ahead of everything except KK right now, and checking it through and seeing a diamond would be sore. I curse semi-loudly if a diamond falls after you're all-in; otherwise, you win this.

[paulewalnutz]

There is no way I'm checking behind here, holding AA and 3 to a flush on board. After reading all of worstplayer's reasoning, I still can't see why I'd want to give a free card here under any circumstance. It looks to me like you have a player here who either has KK, or feels he has hit a perfect flop with AK. In either case, you need to make a decision and go with it, and why not do it before giving someone with the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, or even worse, the Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, a free card to beat you with.

Normally, that check-raise screams that he has AA beat. Without any read, or more importantly, with a read that your opponent understands that more often than not he's tied with you or beat with AK, I think you may want to lay this down.

However, at these stakes, against an aggressive opponent, I think you might see AK or KQ or QQ with a diamond more than enough to justify the call.

Checking and calling the rest of your stack sounds horrible to me, although people do it to me in this situation and I happily oblige, and bet my whole stack at them with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK, then think, oh well, at least he gave me a couple shots at getting that diamond, or better yet, another K.

It may be my "control issues" but I think you grab this pot by the horns and bet hard on the flop, just like you did. After the raise, make a decision, I think the right one based on your read one is to call given the amount that's already in the pot.

[RiverFenix]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way I'm checking behind here, holding AA and 3 to a flush on board. After reading all of worstplayer's reasoning, I still can't see why I'd want to give a free card here under any circumstance. It looks to me like you have a player here who either has KK, or feels he has hit a perfect flop with AK. In either case, you need to make a decision and go with it, and why not do it before giving someone with the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, or even worse, the Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, a free card to beat you with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Youre not giving him a free card, youre giving yourself a card. With any range of hands you put him on, he will be calling any bet you make. If a non diamond falls and then he calls a bet it is a different story. You gain much more info with a turn bet than a flop bet, and waste money by doing both.

[paulewalnutz]

[/ QUOTE ]
Youre not giving him a free card, youre giving yourself a card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel I'm really missing something here - don't I only want a free card if he has 3 K's, 9's, or 3's? If he has those, he's betting into me on the turn, in which case I'm going to start check-calling for one chance at 2 outs (1 safe out if you count the fact that I'm not thrilled to see the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif fall)? I guess everyone's got their style but that's not mine.

Given the pf action, I don't think there's any doubt he's betting the turn if I check behind, as he'd likely put me on QQ or JJ, or possibly AQ suited, non-diamond. I suppose taking my chances that he's got AK is not a bad idea, but if I give him one free card, thinking I've got him beat, I'm raising his turn bet, likely all-in due to the stack sizes. But this is just too fancy for me, and cards such as any Q or diamond make my decision too difficult. I just bet into him and make a decision.