Check raised holding an overpair...what to do?

[KyleH186]

***** Hand History for Game 2112881632 *****
$1000 PL Hold'em - Friday, May 27, 05:25:42 EDT 2005
Table Table 36971 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 6: KyleH681186 ( $4102.28 )
Seat 5: russianlove1 ( $1114.75 )
Seat 3: sergio122 ( $588.75 )
Seat 1: fruitynuts ( $2199 )
Seat 4: Dncfromtkop ( $968.5 )
Seat 10: PjerdBrt ( $1811.25 )
Seat 2: vincent101 ( $1017.75 )
Seat 9: profishy ( $138.75 )
Seat 7: mealticket8 ( $1144 )
Seat 8: winner0420 ( $400 )
sergio122 posts small blind [$5].
Dncfromtkop posts big blind [$10].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to KyleH681186 [ Qh Qs ]
russianlove1 calls [$10].
KyleH681186 raises [$35].
mealticket8 folds.
profishy folds.
PjerdBrt folds.
fruitynuts calls [$35].
vincent101 folds.
sergio122 folds.
Dncfromtkop calls [$25].
russianlove1 calls [$25].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Tc, 6c, 8d ]
Dncfromtkop checks.
russianlove1 checks.
KyleH681186 bets [$60].
fruitynuts calls [$60].
Dncfromtkop folds.
russianlove1 raises [$382].




It may be worth it to note that i managed to piss villain off with a sarcastic comment a few hours earlier and he said he was going to do every thing he could to bad beat me. Best part was I wasnt the one who bad beated him orginally. So anyways, reraise or fold?

[Vavavoom]

IMO, this is a fold.....there are too many hands that are ahead or can draw out on you......

The obvious ones are 66,88,TT....not too mention the possibility of someone holding 2 clubs, for the flush draw....or the straight draw....or even KK/AA???

You have led out on the flop after having it checked to u.....U should have bet the pot.....Instead u have been called and the re-raised......making a bigger bet on the flop would in turn give u more information.....

U have obviously been playing well on the table by the fact you have everyone covered by a long way.....So u don't need to put your chips in when u quite clearly are behind....

U don't say what type of player villain is, just that he said he is going to bad beat you.....

The way u have described it leads me to believe that you pushed and was called by 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.....flopped straight with flush draw behind.....

Just my opinion....

[fisherman112]

i think you should be betting more on the flop here, that looks like half the pot if im adding up the numbers correctly. if an opponent had made that bet into you and you had a pair+flush draw, AT w/ Ac or several other hands you might be raise as well. as it is you have yourself in a difficult situation, the board is too draw heavy to instamuck, but i dont think a reraise is getting called by much you're beating except for some big draw that gave itself pot odds to race you.
i think call, hope for a safe turn and then reassess the situation. if he comes out firing again when a club, T, or 7 comes you have an easier fold. if it's a queen you have an easier push, anything else, it's going to be much more read dependant and considering his comment (whether much can be read into it) it seems more likely that you're ahead here than normal.
i like the call most because you completely cut off his drawing odds if a blank hits the turn and you put him in. if he's the kind of player to overplay his hands against more passive plays (and since it's been a couple hours you should know this) it's much more +EV to let him stack himself off instead of giving him a chance to fold the flop if he decides JJ or 99 is no good.

[KyleH186]

Also interesting to note that while i was making my decision he types "CMON KYLE HURRY UP" into the chat box.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
Also interesting to note that while i was making my decision he types "CMON KYLE HURRY UP" into the chat box.

[/ QUOTE ]this is important. FOLFOLDFOLD FAST.

[KyleH186]

I agree, his chat is the straw that broke the camels back, i folded.

[Izenra]

Do you know what he had?

I put him on a set.

[iceman5]

Easy fold. Players who cant fold this type of hand go broke fast.

[Kirkrrr]

I don't disagree, but could you please elaborate? I agree that an overpair is far from the nuts, but is it really an automatic fold every time you get check-raised?

Thanks,
Kirk R.

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree, but could you please elaborate? I agree that an overpair is far from the nuts, but is it really an automatic fold every time you get check-raised?

[/ QUOTE ]

no - it's not automatic and you need some reads on opponents. One of the problems in this hand is that he isn't ending the action. There is still a player after him and that matters a lot in NL ring play (ray zee just had a comment about this in another thread).

If it were heads up then it would be close, but with the guy behind you, it's a very easy fold unless you know something about both players.

[iceman5]

I concur 100% with what Gomberg just said. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Kirkrrr]

You're right, the second caller does make a huge difference and a much easier fold.

However, if we take this one step further and assume that you're playing heads-up without a good read, how often would you be willing to fold an overpair on a somewhat draw-y board?

I realize that this question is extremely situation/opponent dependent, but I'd still be very interested in hearing your philosophy behind it.

Thanks,
Kirk R.

[edge]

It's not just opponent-dependent. Your read on the opponent just changes the percentages. You can't go ahead folding an overpair against a tight opponent every time, nor can you go all the way against a loose opponent every time. Mix it up a bit, but weighted depending on your read.

Game theory, or something like that.

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]
However, if we take this one step further and assume that you're playing heads-up without a good read, how often would you be willing to fold an overpair on a somewhat draw-y board?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very tough situation. I'm assuming to a check-raise. You really have to think about possible hands that are played. With the hand you had above, any set kills you, AA/KK kill you, a draw on that board is probably about a coinflip. You destroy JJ and probably one other pocket pair that has a backdoor flush and a gutdraw straight. In this spot it would seem like a fold unless the probability of a draw is much higher than a set. This can change though depending on stack size and the money already in the pot. I would be much more comfortable pushing in here (or calling) with AA as then KK, QQ, and JJ could pay you off. Just from my gut - I'd fold in that spot there (head up I'm assuming) about 80% of the time until I get some type of read on how he plays big hands / draws.

I'm sure some other posters could elaborate this better than I.