10/20 AJ with River Play vs TAG......

[MAxx]

Villain is 26/17/2.5 Seems pretty solid over 140+ hands and havent really witnessed any jackassery. Comments pulease...

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

[tongni]

I like it.

[7ontheline]

What is your image? Would he think that you are making a move on the scare card? What range of hands would this apparently solid TAG 3-bet here? I think I usually call this, but that's probably a leak. Your line does scream out "I have an ACE!" with the turn check and river raise, and his 3-bet is pretty much telling you to go eff yourself I suppose.

[imitation]

I really think you should bet the turn on this board, planning to call a CR and non-club river.

[ALL1N]

I think checking behind this turn is fine, as long as you bet any river if checked to.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
I think checking behind this turn is fine, as long as you bet any river if checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

what does betting the river after checking behind on the turn do for you? Hes only going to call with a better hand, and its not like he can think you missed a turn c/r and are betting for value, so he isnt folding any made hand. I might bet a K or Q river (as well as a J or A obviosuly) as then there is a chance he lets go of something that has you beat. but any ole blank river card is a -EV bet IMO after checking the turn.


As for the hand, I fire once more on the turn. He called out of the SB so I think he easily could have been calling the flop with A high or some overs and now lets it go.

I would have just called this river. The problem is against a good player, I dont think he calls your raise unless you are beat, and if you are beat he 3 bets you. Tho I suppose being able to fold to the 3 bet is a reason to do it, but I'm still unsure as to whether he calls the raise often enough with a loser to make it profitable.

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
what does betting the river after checking behind on the turn do for you?

[/ QUOTE ]
The answer lies in your second quote

[ QUOTE ]
he easily could have been calling the flop with A high or some overs and now lets it go.


[/ QUOTE ]

Unless he has specifically A4 or A5 (somewhat unlikely from the SB), checking behind and then betting the river is probably the most valuable line against A-high. Since the opponent is TAG, he'll value bet the river with most pairs if we check behind the turn. So if he checks, our AJ-high is good most of the time, and we will surely get called by A-high after the donk-stop on the turn. This is a value bet.

I like checking behind the turn to prevent Ax folding and also prevent getting checkraised while holding outs, but I'm not going to argue it since I don't believe it is necessarily the best line. I think betting the river after checking behind the turn has a decent chunk of value though.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
So if he checks, our AJ-high is good most of the time, and we will surely get called by A-high after the donk-stop on the turn. This is a value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmmm, I guess I am just skeptical about the numbe of times a weaker A high calls. I dont think this accounts for at least 50% of the hands he calls with

[ QUOTE ]
I like checking behind the turn to prevent Ax folding and also prevent getting checkraised while holding outs, but I'm not going to argue it since I don't believe it is necessarily the best line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if he is the type that will bet the river a large percentage of the time with lots of hands, simply because you checked through the turn, then this is a very good idea. Or like you suggest will call with Ax, but would have folded the turn (I still disagree with).

[ALL1N]

Yeah the parameters are fairly specific... if he does this most of the time without ever doing this etc etc. But put yourself in the opponent's shoes, and think about what you'd do with each hand (this guy is TAG, remember). I know that I'd bet nearly every pair, and check-call A-K high (granted I'd probably have CR'ed an A or K on the flop, but the river bet looks a lot like a bluff after the turn check behind).

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
What is your image? Would he think that you are making a move on the scare card? What range of hands would this apparently solid TAG 3-bet here? I think I usually call this, but that's probably a leak. Your line does scream out "I have an ACE!" with the turn check and river raise, and his 3-bet is pretty much telling you to go eff yourself I suppose.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume his image of me is similar to what my image is of him. That is TAG around 25/18/2.6ish. I may appear a little crazier or capable of makeing a play, but not 100% sure. I think my image is solid.

My thinking on the river, that I am at least telling him I have a good A. I dont make this play often and he doesn't really have much reason to think I will fold to his 3bet. So I had to assume I was pretty far behind for him to 3bet my river raise. If he made a play, well kudos to him... it was well timed.

[MAxx]

I thought at the time he would call my raise with a weaker A's or maybe even some lesser hands. Maybe a good player will not... I think I would call his river raise with an A9o... if the roles were reversed.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the hand, I fire once more on the turn. He called out of the SB so I think he easily could have been calling the flop with A high or some overs and now lets it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to always bet these turns. It is still my default, but somewhere along the way... I began mixing it up. Is there any merit in mixing it up? Or should I always bet this turn?

I like to mix it up for a few reasons:
-opponents may give me more credit when I do lead the turn in this situation..
-I can avoid a few situations where I occasionally get a 6th sensed feeling of a turn cr (i occasionally listen to the inner weak-tighty)
-I can get to showdown cheaper and induce river leads for my A-high. or givs me free card to my A or J here.
-May make me less predictable, but I suppose you could say it makes me more predictable.

So Alobar and others... do you bet this turn 100% of the time. Do you sometimes turn checkbehind overcards heads up vs a nonthreatening but semi drawsy board?

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for the hand, I fire once more on the turn. He called out of the SB so I think he easily could have been calling the flop with A high or some overs and now lets it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to always bet these turns. It is still my default, but somewhere along the way... I began mixing it up. Is there any merit in mixing it up? Or should I always bet this turn?

I like to mix it up for a few reasons:
-opponents may give me more credit when I do lead the turn in this situation..
-I can avoid a few situations where I occasionally get a 6th sensed feeling of a turn cr (i occasionally listen to the inner weak-tighty)
-I can get to showdown cheaper and induce river leads for my A-high. or givs me free card to my A or J here.
-May make me less predictable, but I suppose you could say it makes me more predictable.

So Alobar and others... do you bet this turn 100% of the time. Do you sometimes turn checkbehind overcards heads up vs a nonthreatening but semi drawsy board?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a TAG i probably bet/check 60/40, depending on the board. I thinking mixing it up in these types of spots is a must.

[Nikla]

Always betting sucks hard. Always checking sucks even more. That leaves finding a good balance for when you follow through and when you don't. That is highly dependant on boardtexture, his and your position, image etc.