10/20 ...any insight?

[Prelude008]

Hi,

I am looking for any helpful hints, advice, or "must read" threads about 10/20 (play, expectations, etc) that might help me in this challenge.

A quick background - I decided to participate in the small stakes challenge that I saw in the general forum. The premise is to start at .5/1. Win 50BB and you move up a level, lose 25BB you move down a level. 10/20 is next on my journey, as I am mid-way through 5/10. I normally play 3-6 online and just thought I would post to see if anyone could offer any help/insight on the 10/20 game. Feel free to post/comment... I'm all ears. Thanks.

[Prelude008]

bump...just in case someone really meant to post but got sidetracked /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[James282]

Hey Prelude, questions like this generally don't get many responses because they are too general. What is it you want to know about the game? Also, many in this forum do not play 10/20 - if I were you I'd post very specific questions in the Heads up and Short handed forum, or in small stakes. You will get better answers there.
-James

[Prelude008]

Hi James,

Thanks for the response. I thought (but wasn't sure) that 10/20 would be considered mid. I guess it's not. But since I am here I'd like try to answer you . If I had to try to formulate my top question/concern I would say it would be to find out if in "general" if people at that level (Party) play straight forward for the most part? Are most solid or are there alot of bad players. And is extreme aggression common (especially on bluffs or pushing people off hands ). For this challenge, playing at 10/20 will be a different comfort zone. I was just trying to find out what to expect or be aware of. Reading over this, it still sounds general. If you have any input let me know, otherwise, I will let this post fade away.

Thanks and sorry for being in the wrong form with general questions /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[JimMorris]

Hi there. I play 10/20 six-handed at Party and I've been very successful at it. While every table is very different, I find many of the 10/20 games to be fairly aggressive. By that I mean: it's pretty typical to get played at (raised) during the course of many hands. Expect to get raised frequently, and you'll have to call down often enough to deter them. This is one of the big keys to 10/20 in my opinion: after being raised or check-raised, you have to call down the right percentage of the time. Call down too often and you'll be paying them off too much, call down too little and you'll let them run you off too many hands.
I don't think people play "normal" at all. If they think you might fold, or if they think their hand may be good, they'll play at you. You can't accurately discern a player's holdings from their actions, because there are many reasons to bet/raise/call, and players at higher limits use their chips more creatively than those at 3/6.
I would recommend:
1. Play pretty tight preflop: lay down weak aces, lay down small pairs early, almost never cold call raises.
2. Once you're in there, play it aggressively. The first raise often doesn't mean you're beat, it could mean a lot of things. When you make a good hand, punish them.
3. Even when you don't make your hand, play it aggressively a decent percentage of the time. You can't just give up when you miss like in 3/6.
4. Defend your blind a little more often than you want to, people will be coming for it so much you can't just give it up.
5. When facing a heads-up bet on the river: predict the chances that you think your hand is good (remember they bluff more here than 3/6) Divide the $20 bet size by the pot size (including your opponent's bet), and if the price you're getting on your money is higher than your projected chances of winning, call. This is obvious poker theory that I'm sure you know, but it's critical in 10/20 to always use this. Now there is one adjustment to this theory that needs to be made: If you make it to the river and you have a chance, call. Don't make borderline folds on the river, err on the side of calling not folding. When you fold the river, you make them think that they can bluff you on the river and the'll try it later. When you call the river, you deter future river bluffs. (please don't become a calling station, I'm just saying in close situations tilt the probabilities a bit towards calling.)
Anyway, those are my thoughts. When I jumped up from 3/6 to 10/20 those are the things I had to adjust. In 3/6 I made a good profit just by waiting around for good cards and making a few simple bluffs. In 10/20, I got manipulated for a while until I learned to play a little rougher. Good luck.
- Jim

[flytrap]

This is very good advice that Jim has given you. I would like to add one thing. Often times when people move up they fall prey to fancy play syndrom. They also assume that their opponents are just making fancy plays like check raise semi-bluffs, and that they must call down all the time with hands that should be folded. A lot of the time a bet means just what it looks like. That said, you do need to call down more often in higher limits, especially short handed, just don't do it more than you have to. Also, don't try making too many fancy pants plays all the time. For the most part you can play a normal, tight, aggresive style, and make plays occasionally when you see a good spot.

[Prelude008]

Hey Jim/Fly,

Thanks for the info. I will definitely take that to heart when I play. I haven't played yet, but decided to datamine the games for a bit inorder to have a little player info. Hopefully I'll start the full tables tomorrow. I'll post the results in the Small Stakes open challenge thread in the "general" forum, incase you want to hear how it went. Thanks!

[wheelz]

Except to see a lot more semi-bluff raising on the turn. You might be surprised by how much more you see turn raises.

edit: But flytrap is right, don't assume you're ALWAYS up against a semi-bluff raise or fear that players are always running you over. The worst thing you can do is become a calling station. Just know that there'll probably be a lot more nonsense than you're used to.

[Prelude008]

Hey,

Thanks for the input. I managed to win the 50BB needed for the challenge - 15/30 is next /images/graemlins/wink.gif. There were two aspects of the game that I was unsure of. You are right about quite a bit of semi-bluff raises or complete bluff raises. Finding the balance of knowing when to call vs. fold was tricky for me. I am sure that will get better with pratice and player study.

I also was unsure (in early/out of position) when you raise and miss i.e. AK or raise with QQ with overcards on the flop. If you check, they will usually bet and you don't know where you are. If you bet you could meet aggression (they may or may not have a better hand than yours) or simply get called down with a better hand. Those situations seemed magnified since the money value is higher than I'm use to. Overall I think it went well. Thanks again!!!