KQs on flush draw K flop against early raiser (Party 55)

[Meatmaw]

1) Was the PF call ill-advised?

2) Since I am drawing to second best flush, was it reasonable to check-call? I have a feeling I should have bet out or check-raised, but am uncertain whether I should be trying to extract more chips from a flop that gives me a decent hand and good draw.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t815)
UTG+1 (t910)
MP1 (t1820)
MP2 (t923)
CO (t1137)
Button (t1970)
SB (t1300)
Hero (t1125)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t60</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Hero calls t30.

Flop: (t135) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t30</font>, Hero calls t30.

Turn: (t195) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t30</font>, Hero calls t30.

River: (t255) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t30</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t90</font>, UTG calls t60.

Final Pot: t435

[Unarmed]

PF is fine.
Lead the flop for 100 and push if he raises. You really don't want to be calling this down because you're OOP with an abvious draw. (your implied odds suck) A normal C/R will leave you in an awkward position if he flat calls. A C/R all-in is too much of an overbet (IMO)

F*ck I'll probably get flamed by some random noob so this post is all IMO. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[BDarch]

I like Unarmed's line on this, whenever I have top pair with a good draw also I like to play it very agressively.

[Seadood228]

I won't flame you, but I don't think that line makes sense.

If you push you will only get called by better hands. This line is fine if you are trying to fold such hands, but your hand currently has showdown value. If you behind and push, you'll get called by hands that are either a healthy favorite, or a slight dog. If you are ahead and push, you gain nothing. The ace on the turn messes things up for you a little, but if that's your opponents only out I'd have no problem letting him draw to it.

I like the way the OP played it, although the river checkraise is a little risky.. Depends on the player though.

[Unarmed]

The action on the flop was strange.
Say it went check, Villain bets 130.
What's your plan?

[Seadood228]

[EDIT] This post should have been a reply to unarmed's post.

If he bets 130 on the flop then you call. If your beat you have outs, if he's beat he's betting with the worst hand, either way you are in good shape. If you are ahead, you're opponent is likely drawing to 2-3 outs, and even if he hits you have redraws. Checking here is not weak because it accomplishes two things, a) getting your opponent to put money into the pot drawing slim and b) not allowing your opponent to charge the maximum to draw if you are indeed behind.

The turn is fairly disastrous because Ax has just overtaken you, but you still have almost half the deck if that's the case which isn't so bad... I know some people hate to give out free cards, but it's not a bad thing considering he will only overtake you between 5-6.5% of the time on the turn. This is a very unlikely, and coupled with the fact that YOU might need the free card, there really isn't much reason to push this too hard on the flop.

Now if the flop contained 2 hears but no K or Q.. Well then that's a different story /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Meatmaw]

I would call on the flop and then bet out 270 on the turn unless a heart came on the turn, in which case, I'd check-raise (not all-in) to extract chips.

If no heart came on turn/river I would check it down or fold to a reraise on the turn figuring I didn't have odds for the draw and had worse hand.

Comments?

[Seadood228]

Just curious, why lead the turn?

[Unarmed]

Ok I see what you're saying. The only thing is, your line has a high probability of spewing chips to AA or AK if the turn and river blank. In fact, you will probably be faced with a push on the river under those circumstances. It's just an uncomfortable way of playing the hand, for me anyway.

YMMV

[Meatmaw]

I figure to pressure him and see where he stands if he was betting the flop with a worse hand and to not be faced with checking and then deciding what to do if he bets on the turn. But after thinking about it a bit more, I'm thinking that I either have him beat and am drawing to a better hand, or he has me beat on the Ace turn and won't back down with any bet. Is that your line of thinking?

If so, what do I do if I check and he bets 270?

[nokona13]

I think it should be obvious that check-calling two min bets and then essentially checking/min-raising a river minbet just cannot be the correct way to play any hand, ever.

Personally I like to lead this here on the flop, maybe 100. With his stack size, it's impossible for him to not give you odds. The worst possible case on the flop is that he has black kings, in which case you're about 2.5:1 against, in which case you're slightly -EV with about 2:1 pot odds, but anything else you're either ahead or clearly have odds to draw, so you're not going anywhere. If he just called the flop, then the ace is bad for you. I could see check/calling, check/folding, c/r, or leading turn, depending on opponent. Have to assume opponenet isn't solid with the UTG min-raise, so maybe a check/call assuming either you're ahead of JJ/QQ or will get paid off if you hit the flush? Not confident about that at all. Against a strong opponent who'd made a real raise pre-flop, I'd probably lead again for 2/3-3/4 pot.

[Seadood228]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I like to lead this here on the flop, maybe 100. With his stack size, it's impossible for him to not give you odds. The worst possible case on the flop is that he has black kings, in which case you're about 2.5:1 against, in which case you're slightly -EV with about 2:1 pot odds, but anything else you're either ahead or clearly have odds to draw, so you're not going anywhere. If he just called the flop, then the ace is bad for you. I could see check/calling, check/folding, c/r, or leading turn, depending on opponent. Have to assume opponenet isn't solid with the UTG min-raise, so maybe a check/call assuming either you're ahead of JJ/QQ or will get paid off if you hit the flush? Not confident about that at all. Against a strong opponent who'd made a real raise pre-flop, I'd probably lead again for 2/3-3/4 pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does leading the flop accomplish other than getting 0 for your big hand when ahead, and having to put extra $$$ in when you are behind?

[Seadood228]

If he bets 270 I'd have to reluctantly call with my 9 live outs and 5 more possible. The river is a much tougher decision.

But remember this type of scenario will only happen 6.5% of the time.

[EDIT] I forgot you owned the Ah. It'll happen aboout 5% of the time.

[nokona13]

[ QUOTE ]
What does leading the flop accomplish other than getting 0 for your big hand when ahead, and having to put extra $$$ in when you are behind?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well presumably you sometimes flop other types of hands. What if you held 88 here? You can't bet your made hands and check/call your flush draws. I think check/calling or c/r trips here is also poor. Could you be losing some money from TT by betting 3/4 pot here? Sure. But if you check call two 3/4 pot bets and villain's been paying attention, he's gonna get you squarely on the flush draw and you're not gonna get paid if you hit.

[Seadood228]

[ QUOTE ]
But if you check call two 3/4 pot bets and villain's been paying attention, he's gonna get you squarely on the flush draw and you're not gonna get paid if you hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

errr.. TT already paid you off by putting two 3/4 pot bets in with the worst hand. Would he have done that if you led? What hands does leading the flop benefit in this situation?

[ QUOTE ]
You can't bet your made hands and check/call your flush draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not advocating check/calling all FDs, nor all made hands. It's just the right play for this particular situation. If the board had been 3 rags with a FD, I'd be much more apt to bet or checkraise. In this particular situation there is absolutely 0 point to it unless you either a)put your opponent on KJ/KT or b)are trying to defend against a 2 outer. The flop bet will make you no money, unless you are already behind.

[nokona13]

The thing is, you haven't extracted crap by check calling until the river and then check minraising the river. We got 150 chips from villain with the second nut here. That's just not very good. Bet out, give him a chance to call more than 30 chips. Against a passive min-bettor like this, you're much more likely to get him to call too many chips than bet too many for you.