How bad did i mess this up?

[Jonsan]

I will preface this by saying that I consider myself a fish at this point. I am playing $10 buy-in NLHE on Pacific with bonus money, and $.02/$.04 LHE on PStars. At this point I am just trying to learn the game, especially post-flop, and determine if I can play poker in the long term and at least break even.

.05/.10 $10 buy-in NLHE on Pacific
9 players, I am UTG+3, I get (AKh).
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, I raise it to $0.40, 5 people called.
Flop came down (Js Qh 6d), $2.35 in the pot.

I figure this isn't too bad. I have 6 outs for an over-pair, 4 outs for a straight, and if the turn is a heart I have a nut flush draw.

BB checks, I check (mistake?), the CutOff bets $.80.
I think the BB is on a straight draw (maybe back-door flush), and the CO flopped a pair.

BB calls, I call, pot is $4.65.
Turn comes (Jd), BB checks, I check, CO bets $1.60.

I put the CO on a Q or a 6 when he bet $1.60. Based on his betting in previous hands I think he would have bet more with 2-pair, a set, or a bluff. I figure I have 10 outs, I can see 6 cards, and I know CO has Q or 6, so that gives me 10/45.

BB calls, I call, pot is $9.20.
River comes (5s), BB checks, I check, CO checks.
BB shows (Kc10s), CO shows (Qd9s), CO wins with his two Queens.

I was upset with myself on this hand because I felt I played it way too weak. If I wasn’t going to show some strength, I should have folded after the flop. I didn’t feel comfortable betting on the turn because the J on the turn may have made a set for the CO. Should I have bet there and seen if he raised? At the very least, I think I should have raised his turn bet, or made a large bet on the river. If CO had bet on the River (which I think he should have), should I have folded? Like I said above, I am still in the early stage of learning the game. Anyone care to help?

Thanks!

Jon

[webmonarch]

I'll let others comment on the play of the hand, but I will comment on your attitude: It's good. Knowing that you have a good deal to learn and are willing to learn by posting hands here and reading other threads shows that you have what it takes to become a winning player.

[barongreenback]

It's good to see you making an effort to read your opponents. Thinking clearly and visibly about what you're doing and why is key for good poker. However, I doubt you can be as specific as this with your reads at this level. People will constantly show you surprising hands.
[ QUOTE ]
I figure this isn't too bad. I have 6 outs for an over-pair, 4 outs for a straight, and if the turn is a heart I have a nut flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't have all these outs. Backdoor draws are more of a limit thing. Think of your hand as a gutshot which means that usually the hand is over for you. AK needs to hit in a mutiway pot to be worth much. Against decent players even then it can be trouble.

[swolfe]

you should be following up most preflop raises with a continuation bet. you may want to raise slightly more from EP to discourage the entire table from calling.

if you put CO on a Q, then the J on the turn would have been a great place to check-raise bluff.

[barongreenback]

[ QUOTE ]
Should I have bet there and seen if he raised? At the very least, I think I should have raised his turn bet, or made a large bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just because he was weak doesn't mean he will fold. Aggression is important but concentrate on using it to get money in with the best of it or to protect vulnerable hands rather than getting better hands to fold.
[ QUOTE ]
If CO had bet on the River (which I think he should have), should I have folded?

[/ QUOTE ]
No way you call the river. I don't think the cutoff should bet unless his opponents are calling the river with really weak hands (like AK /images/graemlins/wink.gif) which may be the case at this level.

How you played the hand is unimportant compared to your willingness to learn from it. I too like your attitude.

[WhiteWolf]

Welcome to the boards. I like your attitude + your quest for learning.

You've gotten some good comments above, I'll just add a comment on this:

[ QUOTE ]

Flop came down (Js Qh 6d), $2.35 in the pot

I figure this isn't too bad. I have 6 outs for an over-pair, 4 outs for a straight, and if the turn is a heart I have a nut flush draw.



[/ QUOTE ]

Do NOT give yourself 6 clean outs with overcards, especially with this board. Hitting an A or K to improve your hand to one pair can also improve lots of reasonable hands your opponents may have to better holdings: KT (hello Mr. BB!) or AT can improve to a straight, whereas AQ, AJ, KQ, and KJ can all improve to two pair (this is known as 'reverse domination'). In no-limit, the worst hand to have is the second-best hand, because it can end up costing you lots of money. Because of that danger, I would almost totally discount overcards with this board.

[tripdad]

i'll add one tidbit. be careful about automatically putting your opponents on hands that give you the maximum number of outs. to say you thought the CO had a pair and the BB is on a straight draw is rosey scenario. you have no way of knowing what they have based on the betting patterns here.

what if BB did have a straight draw? that automatically kills three of your "outs", right? and you don't know which card he needs, which effectively kills both the 3 A's and the 3 K's you are giving yourself, right? also, if he is on a straight draw, as you generously put him on, he is highly likely to be holding one of the T's you are looking for.

in a very best case scenario, you have 4 outs along with a backdoor flush draw, which can generously be counted as 2 "outs" (most people say to count it as 1 1/2).

check/fold.

cheers!

[PinkSteel]

Hi Jonsan, I'm still pretty much a fish too but have just turned the corner to making money the last few months.

The quicker you find the discipline to release these preflop premium hands when they don't improve, the quicker you will close a potentially massive leak. The classic beginner problem -- I was guilty too and probably still frequently am -- is clinging to great preflop hands like AK and high pocket pairs, when the action doesn't warrant it. They look sooooo good, and you see them sooooo seldom, it's hard to let them go.

But even a pair of Kings can turn to dogmeat with the wrong flop. Your hand perfectly illustrates the wrong flop for AKo to see, especially multiway. With a premium hand, this should be the time that alarm bells go off. Like everyone else has said, if the flop looks scary, don't think too hard about it. You will save a TON of money by just preparing to dump it and move on.

I hope this doesn't come over like grandpa-like advice; wrote it as much to reinforce my own thinking as to help yours....

[Jonsan]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Jonsan, I'm still pretty much a fish too but have just turned the corner to making money the last few months.

The quicker you find the discipline to release these preflop premium hands when they don't improve, the quicker you will close a potentially massive leak. The classic beginner problem -- I was guilty too and probably still frequently am -- is clinging to great preflop hands like AK and high pocket pairs, when the action doesn't warrant it. They look sooooo good, and you see them sooooo seldom, it's hard to let them go.

But even a pair of Kings can turn to dogmeat with the wrong flop. Your hand perfectly illustrates the wrong flop for AKo to see, especially multiway. With a premium hand, this should be the time that alarm bells go off. Like everyone else has said, if the flop looks scary, don't think too hard about it. You will save a TON of money by just preparing to dump it and move on.

I hope this doesn't come over like grandpa-like advice; wrote it as much to reinforce my own thinking as to help yours....

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Gramps /images/graemlins/grin.gif

No, your advice is good, and something I have read in numerous books. My biggest weaknesses right now are over-valuing weak hands, and under-valuing my opponent's bets. I did it again last night. I made some good plays, and was up a decent amount of money; of course, I called a large river bet when I knew I should fold. I figure getting burned like that will motivate me to be more disciplined. Hope you keep winning, thanks for the input!

Jon