Ethics, 40-80

[Softrock]

I apologize if this is not the proper forum for this post/question but it occurred during a 40-80 holdem game and I think the sophistication implied by that limit is relevant.

Full 40-80 game. At the river I am not in the hand but am paying attention. The board was 34567 (not in that order) with no flush possible. Player A turns up AQ, player B turns up JJ. Sort of simultaneously the dealer pushes the pot to player B and player A gets up to take a walk. Note that player A clearly tabled his hand and the dealer picked it up.

I actually had to stop and think for a minute believing that perhaps I'd missed something. A player I know said something to the person next to him and I said "Hey, Mike, there was a straight on the board right". He agreed there was. There was then a brief discussion - one sentiment voiced was the guy isn't here now and doesn't realize so just let it be. The dealer, aware of the discussion, asked if she had done something wrong and was told that there had been a straight on board. She acknowledged she hadn't noticed this but did nothing further.

After some reflection, I wished I'd said something. One argument was players have to watch their own hands but we also have the "cards speak" rule and the player had tabled his hand (face up in case anyone is unclear here). We also have a duty, I think, to facillitate the integrity of the game. This is a different situation than personally seeing a players cards and pointing out to him what he has before he has a chance to muck. I now feel that I passively colluded to deprive player A of half the pot.

I later discussed this privately with the cardroom manager who said he didn't like it at all but that it was a borderline situation.

Two questions. First, do we as players have an obligation to speak up in this situation? Second, should the dealer, once informed, have taked further action?

[D.J.]

I think as a player you should really stay out of it. It's not your place nor is it your job to intervene. If the player missed this it's his fault. Now, the dealer did not perform her job and she has the job of calling the game and reading cards turned face up. The dealer definitely has an obligation to take further action and give the guy his half b/c he offered to have his cards read, and the dealer denied him this by not doing her job. I understand that the dealer is human also, but this is what she gets paid by the casino and tipped by the players to do, this was a big screw up. I was reading something in cardplayer about this happening in a tournament w/ lots of chips involved, and a player intervened and I still don't think that was the right move, but that's just my opinion. The responsibility should fall solely on the dealer.

-D.J.

[Dynasty]

When it was clear the dealer was making an error, you should have said something like "there's a straight on the board" so that the dealer makes the correct decision.

[astroglide]

it's the house's responsibility to ensure their dealers are properly enforcing the rules of the game. if the house saw the tape, they would clearly give the other player half the pot.

this isn't akin to reminding somebody to protect their cards.

i'm w/dynasty.

[Softrock]

In retrospect that's what I wish I had done. I give nobody a break at the table and have never in my life "checked it down" with a friend or anything like that. However, we still play within a set of rules that are there so that we have a game with "integrity". I think as players we also have a responsibility to those rules.

[mikelow]

I agree that you or one of the other players should have "blurted" out that there was a straight on board.

I also think the dealer is largely at fault for not recogizing the straight on the board. At the 40-80 level, if the dealer can't recognize a straight, he/she shouldn't be dealing the game. So I blame you (and the other players at the table) about 35% and the dealer about 65%.

[brad]

im just glad where i play people are really good sports and wouldnt have screwed me if i had had the AQ, not even opponent with JJ.

[Andy B]

I always speak up in this kind of situation, and I think that that's the right thing to do. If the guy had just flashed his AQ to his neighbor and then pitched it, then that would've been too bad. Once his hand is tabled, the cards speak for themselves, and I think that it is everyone's responsibility to ensure that the pot is awarded properly.

[cpk]

Rules are one thing--ethics are another. Ethically, you should protect the integrity of the game at all times. Plus, piping up is a way of "paying it forward." Maybe someone will save you a pot some day.

If the rule is "cards speak," it is OK for you to read the hands out loud once all hands are either tabled or mucked. This does not violate the principle of OPTAH, and anyone who says it does is simply wrong--no matter what limit, whether it's 1-2 or 2000-4000.

However, it's important for you to avoid comments about the board while the hand is in play--wait for the showdown to be complete. This is covered by OPTAH.

[spitball]

the dealer is responsible for running the game. as the hand was tabled, AQ is owed half the pot. once u brought this to the dealer's attention, she is obligated to find a way to get AQ half the pot, either from JJ (not likely - not his error) or from the house through the houseman. It is also her responsibility to know exactly how much $ was in the pot when it was awarded so that there is no question as to how much AQ is owed.

that the dealer and then the houseman both shirked their duty to AQ in this case, you should seriously consider bringing this incident to the attention of their boss. hopefully the proper way of handling house/dealer errors is reiterated to these two negligent employees.

spitball

[budman]

I agree with you and Dynasty regarding other players taking an active part in protecting the integrity of the game.

Unfortunately, with dealers counting down the deck, checking their rack (of chips), etc. they do make mistakes. It is up to us to speak up and make support them so that noone gets screwed.

[budman]

Hell yes.

I was at the Bellagio playing 15-30 when one person made a bluff at the pot on the river. The woman he was up against called his bet. He said "good call" and threw his cards towards the pot face up. It was clear to everyone that he missed his draw and that the woman, who was a very good player, had him cold.

However, she slid her cards in face up and the dealer pushed her the pot. The fellow who made the river bet threw a fit because he never got to see what beat him. The dealer and floorman refused to do anything.

He appealed to the manager of the cardroom who reviewed the tapes and did somewhat take care of him. The dealer claimed that the player mucked his cards and the floorman backed her up.

I think that the Bellagio management did the right thing in rebating some of the pot to that player. Even though they have some of the most competent and professional dealers I have ever played with, they still make mistakes here and there.

[M.B.E.]

Did Player B realize at the time that there was a straight on board? If so, wasn't he embarrassed to be seen accepting the whole pot?

[Softrock]

It appeared that player B did indeed see the straight on board and in fact it was him talking with the fellow who I confirmed with that there had indeed been a straight on board. Player B said nothing, did nothing. I don't know him and had never seen him before. Frankly, my concern is what I should have done - but I'm surprised he wasn't shamed into making some sort of retribution.

[Mason Malmuth]

The rule is cards speak. In this case that means the player in question is suppose to get half the pot. It's not a boderline situation. The facts as you have explained them are clear cut, and the Cards Speak Rule takes precedence over everything else.

The poker room manager should have told the other player to give up half the pot or be barred. If he refuses to give up half the pot saying it is already in his stack, the card room should make it good. Furthermore, this should be done even if the player with the AQ has no idea that he is due this money.

MM

[spike]

This reminds me of a recent incident. A and B were playing a no-limit heads-up freezeout game as part of a larger tournament. X was dealing and I was observing.

In one hand, A (in the SB) raised pre-flop, B called. The flop came 245 rainbow. A bet and B called. The turn was a 6. A bet and had B covered, B called all-in. The river was a 7.

A showed a pair of tens. B said "nice hand". He showed a bare ace and casually tossed aside his kicker... an 8. He stood, shook B by the hand congratulated him on a good game and everyone exchanged pleasantries.

It seemed that only I had noticed the B's made straight. The dilemma was though... A is my brother.

I spoke up... the game resumed... and B went on to win.

Obviously we discussed this at some length afterwards and my bro' assured me that he as very grateful for me owning up. Obviously they would both have replayed that final hand in their minds afterwards and one or otehr them would have realised the error. Or, I if I hadn't spoken up then I would have told bro' afterwards what I'd seen... either way he would have felt terrible about his empty win.

Spike.