Could be a chop - ATs

[StellarWind]

Paradise 3/6 5-max (5 players)

BB is probably LAG.

Hero is Cutoff with A /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Preflop: Hero raises, BB calls.

Flop (4 SB) J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn (3 BB) Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB raises, Hero calls, ...

[ISF]

You have to keep going here, he will have a set or two pair way more often they he will be freerolling with an Ax of diamonds.

[RunDownHouse]

Does paradise allow unlimited raises HU?

If so, wait until you're sure he's not freerolling you and go to town on the river.

[kurosh]

I call the initial turn bet.

[MrFeelNothin]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to keep going here, he will have a set or two pair way more often they he will be freerolling with an Ax of diamonds.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you call the 3bet on the turn and raise the non-diamond, non-paired river you get the same amount of bets from 2pair/set as you would capping and betting the river. And you get them in when you have 100% equity on all the money going in. That is as long as the set/2pair will still bet out on the river if you dont cap, which is a reasonable assumption.

You will only lose a bet against 2pair/set when a diamond hits and you can't raise. Though against a lot of opponents, you can still raise a diamond river.

Considering that you could also be getting freerolled, I like this line.

[MrFeelNothin]

[ QUOTE ]
I call the initial turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explanation please?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Does paradise allow unlimited raises HU?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. Standard online 4-cap at ring play. 6-cap HU in a tournament.

[kurosh]

I don't see a reason to raise. If he does have an A, there's a chance of him freerolling you and he is never folding. If he has 2-pair/set, he's probably going to continue betting the river and you can raise then. If he doesn't have an A and has something like K8, he's probably going to fold and might've bet the river.

[MrFeelNothin]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see a reason to raise. If he does have an A, there's a chance of him freerolling you and he is never folding. If he has 2-pair/set, he's probably going to continue betting the river and you can raise then. If he doesn't have an A and has something like K8, he's probably going to fold and might've bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are my reasons for not capping. But dont you think that against a probable LAG it is worth it to push this hand? LAGS dont like to be pushed around especially on bluffing boards, he is likely to push back with much less than an A.

[Michael Davis]

"You have to keep going here, he will have a set or two pair way more often they he will be freerolling with an Ax of diamonds."

So what? If he has a set or two pair or a complete bluff you make the same amount by waiting to raise a non-paired non-diamond river. Because he's betting the river when you just call and paying off your raise if he's stupid enough to reraise the turn.

Anyways, even the stupidest players see this board, and IMO it's going to be a straight chop most of the time but you'll be against diamonds more often than two pair/set/9 and you can make the same amount against all those hands by waiting.

-Michael

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see a reason to raise. If he does have an A, there's a chance of him freerolling you and he is never folding. If he has 2-pair/set, he's probably going to continue betting the river and you can raise then. If he doesn't have an A and has something like K8, he's probably going to fold and might've bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are my reasons for not capping. But dont you think that against a probable LAG it is worth it to push this hand? LAGS dont like to be pushed around especially on bluffing boards, he is likely to push back with much less than an A.

[/ QUOTE ]

BB could be playing a 9, but the read isn't certain that he is a LAG.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see a reason to raise. If he does have an A, there's a chance of him freerolling you and he is never folding. If he has 2-pair/set, he's probably going to continue betting the river and you can raise then. If he doesn't have an A and has something like K8, he's probably going to fold and might've bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
1. Calling the turn does not help against A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifx /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Having been 3-bet on the turn I am pretty certain he has the ace. Therefore I have no problem just calling the river when the diamond hits. But if I never raised the turn I have to raise the river even when a diamond comes. Then he 3-bets me and we are right back where we started: losing 4 BB on the big streets to the nut flush.

2. He could have nothing but a flush draw in which case I probably need to raise now.

3. It's very possible that he will not bet the river with two pair or whatever. Otherwise LAG players who get really shy on the river are extremely common.

4. A nine on the river will probably kill my chance to make two bets against any worse hand. It would be a very unusual player who would bet into KQJT9 without an ace.

5. If you raise the turn and call the 3-bet, you might get an offsuit two on the river. Then your opponent will bet, 3-bet, and call the cap with KJo. MHIG /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[Redeye]

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise the turn and call the 3-bet, you might get an offsuit two on the river. Then your opponent will bet, 3-bet, and call the cap with KJo. MHIG

[/ QUOTE ]

If that really was the result of this hand thats really weird because I had the same thing happen to me last night. Got capped on the river, I had the straight and the clown had KJo for two pair.

Anyways, I agree with you, I think you have to raise the turn, but calling the 3-bet is probably good. I just don't think it will matter that much though. The only real worry is a free rolling Axd, and while definately possible, the % chance of it being there probably isn't high enough to make much of a difference. Also, I don't think sets and two pairs bet the river often if you call either the original bet or the 3-bet. so I think what you lose against a free rolling ace is made up the few times someone is aggressive enough to pop the set or two pair on the 4 straight turn.

[kurosh]

Ok, well, I was referring to players who are not retarded.