ATs 5 handed

[Paluka]

Tough game, but small blind is on pretty bad tilt.
I raise utg AcTc, sb calls, bb calls. Flop Qd8c7s. sb checks, bb bets.
Raise, call, fold?

[rigoletto]

Call and reevaluate on the turn. He could be betting a lot of hands here, some of which you are ahead and some you have 8 outs to beat.

[tighterr]

Close call between call or fold. Depends on your reads on the player. I think a call and evaluate the turn is not bad but this pot really isnt offering much at the moment for anything else. Dont lose much by folding. In a tough game do you think raising ATs UTG is a good idea normally?

[kurosh]

5-handed.

[tighterr]

Thanks. That makes alot more sense.

[Senor Choppy]

I guess it depends on how the sb is tilting. If he's spazzing out postflop for no reason, that sounds like a good reason to fold.

[Boris]

5 handed I don't think you can give up so easily. You have no particular reason to think BB has a queen. The ten only completes a gutshot draw. Call.

[turnipmonster]

would he generally checkraise hands like top pair or A8 here?

[Paluka]

I think he would bet a hand like A7 or A8 here sometimes, along with sometimes a Q. Also he might be 9T or 56.

[fsuplayer]

raising was my first instict, unless he'll three bet with less than a queen, then I like a call.

edit: my limit game is very rusty, so i could be way off.

[turnipmonster]

I was just thinking that his bet is probably more likely a draw, cring seems a clear play if he really wants to put money in the pot. I wouldn't fold here 5 handed, but obviously don't play very high limit so I am curious about rationale behind folding, other than SB going crazy with nothing. seems like you rate to have the best hand a good amount of the time.

[johnnycakes]

[ QUOTE ]
Call and reevaluate on the turn. He could be betting a lot of hands here, some of which you are ahead and some you have 8 outs to beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd rather raise, then re-evaluate.

If you raise the flop, he either calls and you will now (probably) have the option of taking a free card on the turn, OR, he three bets and you call and now have a better idea of how much he really likes his hand.

If you call the flop, you get no information.
He'll inevitably bet the turn, and if you didn't improve, you still have no idea how much he likes his hand. I don't want to put a raise in here to find out.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
raising was my first instict, unless he'll three bet with less than a queen, then I like a call.

edit: my limit game is very rusty, so i could be way off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is really the crux of the situation. I think I should raise this flop if I won't get 3 bet except by a very strong hand.

[tpir90036]

My first thought was to raise and take it from there. I don't think calling is bad necessarily....but I am seeing the turn so raising can't be all bad. Folding seems out of the question but maybe I peel too much when I have lots of backdoor draws going on.

[mister]

Assume we raise, and he calls. What if the turn is the Qc.

What's the line then ?

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raising was my first instict, unless he'll three bet with less than a queen, then I like a call.

edit: my limit game is very rusty, so i could be way off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is really the crux of the situation. I think I should raise this flop if I won't get 3 bet except by a very strong hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising is certainly a viable option, but we don't have much information on BB and a lot of tough players will 3-bet a 7 or 8 here.

When you say it's a tough game I assume thinking players and that you have a tough image. In that case you should take into consideration that he'll check the turn a % of the time which makes the free card raise less valuable.

Lastly the free card raise usually spoils the option of taking the pot with a turn or river raise.

[HiatusOver]

Just to add a different perspective to this thread, I am usually folding in this spot against the players described without any info on BB flop lead habits.

[johnnycakes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raising was my first instict, unless he'll three bet with less than a queen, then I like a call.

edit: my limit game is very rusty, so i could be way off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is really the crux of the situation. I think I should raise this flop if I won't get 3 bet except by a very strong hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising is certainly a viable option, but we don't have much information on BB and a lot of tough players will 3-bet a 7 or 8 here.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good. If that's true, now you know he has at least a pair up against your no-pair, and you can fold on the turn unimproved.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
Good. If that's true, now you know he has at least a pair up against your no-pair, and you can fold on the turn unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it cheaper to just call and then fold the turn unimproved?

[niko421]

Raise RAISE RAISE... you should have at least 8 outs, and probably the A will be good as well... RAISE get a free turn card if necessary, but you can't let go of this hand six small bets in the pot, and you need to pay 1, to hit the turn you are at worst a 5.5:1 dog, so the math works to just call and even on a raise with tilter calling you are getting good implied on the raise as well.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise RAISE RAISE... you should have at least 8 outs, and probably the A will be good as well... RAISE get a free turn card if necessary, but you can't let go of this hand six small bets in the pot, and you need to pay 1, to hit the turn you are at worst a 5.5:1 dog, so the math works to just call and even on a raise with tilter calling you are getting good implied on the raise as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least 8 outs eh?

[johnnycakes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good. If that's true, now you know he has at least a pair up against your no-pair, and you can fold on the turn unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it cheaper to just call and then fold the turn unimproved?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and that's a good line to take if you know your opponent will not bet with less than one pair.

[jfresh]

i don't like a raise here, because since the game is tough, BB is probably betting out with the expectation of getting raised. there is obviously a large range of hands you are opening with in a 5 handed game and there is no reason to think a Q87 flop hit you. getting 3 bet would suck

[Schneids]

You've given no info on BB, but a LOT of players in higher stakes games make this bet out looking to 3 bet. I often call and fold the turn unimproved.

The better I'm running the more likely I am to raise if I think BB has noticed I've been hitting. But I think my default is to call and fold turn unimproved. The story is a little different if you had raised from the button, but since you raised from UTG I think this bet out is rarely with a hand where you can take him off it and one where we can say on average you have about 4-4.5 outs.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
You've given no info on BB, but a LOT of players in higher stakes games make this bet out looking to 3 bet. I often call and fold the turn unimproved.

The better I'm running the more likely I am to raise if I think BB has noticed I've been hitting. But I think my default is to call and fold turn unimproved. The story is a little different if you had raised from the button, but since you raised from UTG I think this bet out is rarely with a hand where you can take him off it and one where we can say on average you have about 4-4.5 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I pretty much agree. I called the flop and folded the turn unimproved.

[HiatusOver]

We are not closing the action with an aggressive player left to act and u say we on average have 4-4.5 outs which is a little less that 10:1...so why call when our immediate odds are 7:1?

[Schneids]

Might check the turn to us (doubtful but possible). Might hit a 9 (which I forgot to include in the 4-4.5 estimate), and it's better in short handed for people to see they can't expect to fire once against you and win [IMO the most important reason though if I've been running over the table and this fact is obvious then I might be more inclined to give it up one time].

[niko421]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise RAISE RAISE... you should have at least 8 outs,

[/ QUOTE ]

OOPs! I thought it was 4 flush with an over, misread the original post... Lets redo the math... 1 out for runner runner str8, 1 out for runner runner flush, 3 aces, and 0.5 for T (which may be good) I see 5.5 outs which is 8:1 and you are getting 7:1, however implied (depending on the player) may allow a raise, or call... but short handed I am still not folding.

[Ezcheeze]

You should raise either way. You have great value here and it's a great meta-game play. Gets you more action with your good hands, and makes them think twice about betting into you with draws. If they know you'll raise this weak then they probably won't think they have much bluff equity on the flop bet /images/graemlins/grin.gif. In fact they'll possibly be more likely to bet their good hands into you looking for you to raise this "garbage" so they can 3 bet. I always love it when I get my opponents to play more straightforward against me. God a raise is so good here, just raise!

-Ezcheeze