Mucking QQ as the favorite in No Limit Tourney

[Acesover8s]

Down to last 22 players in NLHE tourney. I pick up a pair of black chicks in the $200 Big Blind. Folded to the cutoff -1 who makes it $800 to go. The cutoff has almost exactly the same amount of chips as I do, $8200. I decide that I'm going to push in when it gets to me, wanting to win it right there.

Before I get the chance the small blind pushes all in with $6,600. Being who I am I don't consider anything other than "Me got QQ, Me Raise". So I reraised all in. Original raiser thinks for a minute and folds his TT.

Did I play this hand correctly? At first it seemed obvious to me, but now I'm not so sure.

Results later

[Acesover8s]

I guess the subject betrayed me. Anyway, Small blind turns over AKo. Flop brings a King and he doubles through me, crippling my stack. I go out a few hands later with my A5 getting called by JQ.

I feel that I would play the hand the same way if it happened again, but assuming you 'knew' your opponent had AK there and you are a very slight favorite is it ever correct to muck?

It seems like the value of survival would be more important than the value of possibly doubling up on a 'coin-flip' hand. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

[sdplayerb]

If I KNEW he had AK, I'd call.
But you are in the situation of small favorite or big underdog as he could only have AA, KK, AK. That is not the situation you want to be in.
He does more likely have AK 16-12 odds (of course could be making a move, but with the stacks, seems less likely). So I would fold unless already in the money.

SD

[Acesover8s]

I agree with your reasoning if he must have one of those 3 hands, but he wasn't facing a necessarily legitimate raise. A lot of people will reraise all-in against someone who they think is light with hands as week as AXo and 77 or such. Assuming this guy is a reasonable player he could still have hands that I'm very much a favorite over such as JJ or AQ.

I think to assume the raiser has those hands is only safe if the initial raiser came from an earlier position.

[sdplayerb]

was this some low buyin maniac tourney? or a $50+ buyin tourney?
What type of player was he?

You also still had to be worried the first raiser had AA or KK, but less likely.

Unless a maniac, players aren't going to reraise allin with this many times the big blind without one of the four biggest hands...maybe i'm wrong. But if they do, they are just asking to get broken off by AA or KK.

SD

[Toro]

I usually don't look at my cards until it's my turn to act. In similar circumstances to yours, I recall saying to myself "hope I don't have jacks or queens." I dislike calling large all in bets. But in this situation, I think you made the right play. The size of the SB's all in reraise indicates that he does not want a call, which he doesn't with AK. His bet also could indicate a medium pair such as 10's or j's where you're a big favorite. I would have called, same circumstances.

[The Bear]

"If I KNEW he had AK, I'd call."

SD, I cannot understand your reasoning here. If you consider yourself a skilled player, why would you ever call allin (or almost allin) on an even-money shot for all your chips when you're well-stacked? I can understand if you're playing a small stack and need to double up, but acesover8s was NOT in such a position. He has a solid stack and virtually NO money committed. If the SB flashes AKo, I think this is a clear fold.

Having said that, I think the right play here is a big question mark. Aces, you're the only player who can really answer this question, since you had seen all the action leading up to the hand. Personally, I would dump it. I can think of much better times to get my money involved that don't involve two raises coming at me for almost all my chips with a hand that is not overwhelmingly strong (i.e. AA or KK). I think I remember you posting that you have had some great success playing no-limit lately. If that's true, you're clearly one of the best players in the tourney, so there will surely be better times to get your money in the pot, times when you will possess the first-mover advantage that was taken by the small blind in this example. Also, I think that you should think more critically about a given situation. Thinking "I have Q's, so it's going allin" is NOT the mark of a great player. You obviously know that there are many situations where queens aren't worth a damn thing. Next time, I'd think a little harder before making your decision. I hope things continue to go well for you. I look forward to seeing you at the tables.

[ohkanada]

Sounds like your table was 7 or 8 handed.

What type of player is the cutoff? He is in a steal position. Does he need a real hand or will he steal? Now how about the SB? Does he need a real hand or is he simply re-stealing?

Now based on these answers will determine if the SB can only have AA/KK/AK.

If the initial raiser was UTG and the SB re-raised all-in, I would muck QQ. Your situation is tougher but probably a call since it may just be a re-steal but you know the players better than I.

Ken Poklitar

[Moose]

Remember that the original raiser chipped in $800 and that Ao8 already has $200 in. So, he only needs to call 6.4k to win 7.6k, almost a 6-5 payoff. Bearing in mind that black QQ is 57-43 favorite over red AKo, and that he's still a long, long way from the money, the almost +25% EV is way too much to pass up on -- isn't it? Ignoring slight edges for survival is one thing, but I don't think I could ever pass a chance to put in most but not all of my chips on the line for such a huge overlay.

M.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Yes, I agree completely. 25% is much too much of an overlay to give up. In fact, 14% is too much also. So, if you have QQ and they show you AKo, you should never fold. If they show you AKs, now your edge is more like 6%, and you can fold if you're a very good player.

I would very much like to hear from Sklansky on this issue. Many people have long held the opinion that they are too good to gamble all their chips unless they're a big favorite. Sklansky agrees in principle in his book, with the statement that you shouldn't gamble all your chips with a SMALL edge. I don't believe he ever made it clear what number he considers small. However, I'm sure that 25% isn't it, nor is 14%. 6%, now we might be in the right neighborhood.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[sdplayerb]

Exactly. The dead money is why I'd be all-in here if I knew he had AK.
Make sense bear?

[The Bear]

Yes, with the dead money it makes sense. However, I, like Greg, would like to see the appropriate overlay % required for a call. 6% seems frighteningly low to me, given the large skill differences that exist between no-limit players.

[sdplayerb]

I do agree.
And like I said, I would have mucked QQ.
You never know that somebody has AK anyway.
And that is why it was a good play by the player with AK. He has two ways to win, a fold or is a 11/10 dog but getting that in odds.

I also agree on the large skill differences in NL. That is why I have come to greatly prefer NL tourneys.
Unfortunately San Diego only has one decent (Oceanside) one and one horrible one (Sycuan).

SD