I'm playing too many hands

[dcssullivan]

Any advice for what I can do mentally to stop this?

I know I shouldn't be playing so many, the little stats tab at Absolute says I'm seeing the flop 35% of the time.

This is my biggest problem in limit holdem. I'm certain this is where most of my money goes down the hole, just playing too many hands. I know I shouldn't be, but I keep playing them. I see pocket deuces and can't throw them away. I complete the SB as long as my cards aren't absolutely horrendous. I come in on the button with suited gapped connectors, because I know that position is very important, and usually can't catch.

Is there anything that I can do to help me toughen up?

[SheridanCat]

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Any advice for what I can do mentally to stop this?

I know I shouldn't be playing so many, the little stats tab at Absolute says I'm seeing the flop 35% of the time.


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This could easily be misleading. Are they counting free plays from the big blind? PokerTracker uses a statistic of voluntarily putting money in the pot (VPIP), and that excludes an unraised big blind.

A decent VPIP is about 20%. If you're in a lot of passive games, that could be driving the Absolute number up if they count seeing the flop from the BB for free.

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I see pocket deuces and can't throw them away.

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Me too, if the pot is unraised. Are you playing small pocket pairs in raised pots? That is a leak. If you have this leak, you just have to bite the bullet and throw them away. If you must be convinced, keep track of what wins when you fold small pairs in the face of a raise. You'll be convinced if you look at the data.

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I complete the SB as long as my cards aren't absolutely horrendous.


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What counts as horrendous? In a game where the SB is 1/2 of the BB, you can be pretty liberal from the SB.

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I come in on the button with suited gapped connectors, because I know that position is very important, and usually can't catch.


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What do you mean by "come in" in this situation? If it's folded to you and you raise on a steal, that's not too bad, imo. If you're limping in after a couple limpers, that's more of a problem. Trying to hit these hands will eat your stack.

How do you toughen up? Start throwing hands away. That's about all you can do. Read Ed Miller's Getting Started In Hold'em and follow his guidelines - those are guaranteed to tighten you up.

Regards,

T

Beginner's Poker FAQ (http://www.pokergeek.com/faq/beginners_faq.html)

[dcssullivan]

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What do you mean by "come in" in this situation? If it's folded to you and you raise on a steal, that's not too bad, imo. If you're limping in after a couple limpers, that's more of a problem. Trying to hit these hands will eat your stack.


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limping in after a couple of limpers.

And I did just get GSIH yesterday, so it's a matter of me getting to read it.

So limping in with small pocket pairs is OK?

As far as the SB, I fold on 72o or 94o or something similar to junk link that, but play alot of other hands.

I do believe Absolute counts the BB even as a freebie. I'm working on a promotion through an affiliate so that I can get PokerTracker. I did the 1000 hand trial of it and was very impressed.

Thank you for your helpful response!

[SheridanCat]

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So limping in with small pocket pairs is OK?


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Sure. You're looking to flop a set with these guys, and when you do you should get paid well. No cold calling with these hands, though.

Regards,

T

[playersare]

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So limping in with small pocket pairs is OK?
As far as the SB, I fold on 72o or 94o or something similar to junk link that, but play alot of other hands.

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when there are unraised limpers already ahead of you, it's better odds to try and hit a speculative hand on the flop such as low pocket pairs and strong suited neighbors, where there is already enough money in the pot to justify those times when you do catch. on the other hand, high offsuit cards like KTo and QJo will rarely win multiway and should be discarded if not first in (and if you open in late position should be raised to cut down opponents).

in the small blind, you can be more liberal but not TOO liberal. your VP$IP should be around 30-40% in the SB vs. 20-25% overall (as a beginner). in SB you can add all pocket pairs and any two "reasonably good" suited cards if multiway. if only 1-2 limpers plus the big blind, then you could also try decent offsuit holdings like any two cards 10 and higher and "reasonably good" Ax and Kx hands (which more emphasis on having an ace).

I think the majority of beginner money is lost on playing weak offsuit hands in multiway pots, and junk suited cards in shorthanded and/or raised preflop hands. I know mine was! it's not necessarily wrong to come in with a flush or set hand when nobody else shows strength. anyone who complains that you hit something on the cheap, that's their fault, not yours. but if you're in a tougher game and find yourself cold calling raises and checking down mediocre hands, then you'll be toast in the long run.

use pokertracker to see which starting hands are truly profitable, and which ones aren't, and just force yourself to play by the numbers until you're good enough to refine your game specifically to your style. math is money!

[fireman664]

every situation is different, and depends on the table characteristics.

for example
4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif from the button. If there are 3 or 4 limpers in before you, this becomes a (marginally) profitable hand (you are getting/going to get implied and pot odds to chase your draw)...same hand with 1 or 2 limpers before you, you should fold (this hand is now unprofitable) This is why position is important...same hand, everyone folds to you, you can make an argument for a raise to steal with (I think you need tight blinds to make this profitable)

small pockets are similar, but can withstand a little more action preflop


examples...3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif from the button
4 limpers to you...very profitable call (these hand splay real well at aggressive/loose tables. In other words when you will get paid off when you are lucky enough to flop a set)
same hand, 1 limpers to you...easy fold (and dont cuss when you watch a 3 flop)
same hand 2 EP limpers, MP raise LP call, its to you, I will call 2 cold here (if its 3 bet before you you have to let it go)
same hand, everyone folds to you...I think most of the time you should fold. (again, you could try a steal attempt IN THE RIGHT SITUATIONS)

I hope this helps. I believe as a beginning player, if you remove 67s and lower, and 66 and lower most of the time from your game, you will not be hurting yourself. These hands are marginal winners IN IDEAL situations, so folding them wont be costing you alot...playing them in the wrong situations will however.

Again, think of each hand AND SITUATION as an independent investment (not I wanna play this hand) analize it and say "OK, I have 45s from UTG...this table frequently raises preflop...Is this a profitable situation for this hand....no, therefore fold.

I highly recomend small stakes holdem too...great book

PS: although stats can be crazy, I would say 90% of the winners on the forum in limit Voluntarily put $ in the pot (see the flop OTHER than from the BB) less than 20%...just to let you know where your 35% stands (of course this is total, counting the blinds...which BTW, your SB play seems like its WAY loose too)

[fireman664]

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So limping in with small pocket pairs is OK?
As far as the SB, I fold on 72o or 94o or something similar to junk link that, but play alot of other hands.

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when there are unraised limpers already ahead of you, it's better odds to try and hit a speculative hand on the flop such as low pocket pairs and strong suited neighbors, where there is already enough money in the pot to justify those times when you do catch. on the other hand, high offsuit cards like KTo and QJo will rarely win multiway and should be discarded if not first in (and if you open in late position should be raised to cut down opponents).

in the small blind, you can be more liberal but not TOO liberal. your VP$IP should be around 30-40% in the SB vs. 20-25% overall (as a beginner). in SB you can add all pocket pairs and any two "reasonably good" suited cards if multiway. if only 1-2 limpers plus the big blind, then you could also try decent offsuit holdings like any two cards 10 and higher and "reasonably good" Ax and Kx hands (which more emphasis on having an ace).

I think the majority of beginner money is lost on playing weak offsuit hands in multiway pots, and junk suited cards in shorthanded and/or raised preflop hands. I know mine was! it's not necessarily wrong to come in with a flush or set hand when nobody else shows strength. anyone who complains that you hit something on the cheap, that's their fault, not yours. but if you're in a tougher game and find yourself cold calling raises and checking down mediocre hands, then you'll be toast in the long run.

use pokertracker to see which starting hands are truly profitable, and which ones aren't, and just force yourself to play by the numbers until you're good enough to refine your game specifically to your style. math is money!

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good post IMO

You should RARLY be calling 2 bets cold (especially being the first to call the raise) If you are in MP or later, You should almost always enter for a raise (again, a hand like 78s is not profitable since you dont have the limpers ahead of you, so fold it..same with 33,22, ect IMO) so your hands like KJo need to be protected by limiting the field. So you would NEVER call a raise with KJo, but if its folded to you, you should probably raise with it.....see how the dynamics change quickly, and why each decision should be looked at for the profitable play? Just because a book says you can play 67s from LP, doesnt mean there are going to be many situations where you actually SHOULD play it.

hope my rambling helped

[ThaHero]

You've gotten some good info so far. I hope it helped. It helped me.

On Pokertracker, in my first 1,000 hands(I haven't registered yet) I did the auto-rate player and they gave me an unhappy face and said I was Semi-loose Aggressive Passive. This meant I was semi-loose, leaning towards tight(i suppose, hopefully i wasn't leaning towards maniacal!) aggressive preflop and passive postflop.

Looking at my stats on PokerStars I knew I had to tighten up. I don't think they count their hands the same way as PT, but it gave me an idea. I've made a concious effort to tighten up my play and I've seen my winrate soar.

I used to think that hands were hands no matter what, and if they were profitable, they were, if they weren't, they ween't. I gave no heed to number of people already in the pot, position, etc.

Against a raise, if the pot isnt multiway, you gotta tighten up REAL quick. With 5 or 6 people calling the raise you can be a bit looser with speculative hands.

There is SO MUCH going on preflop. It seems so simple but it isn't. It does take work to get it right. I imagine seeing your stack dwindling should be enough to fix a mistake you know you are making /images/graemlins/grin.gif. But we are all guilty of being stubborn. My best advice is to read GSIH(i haven't yet) and see what his recommendations are for hands preflop, and WHY. SSH has a great Preflop chapter as well.

I'm not sure if my VPIP is below 20% yet(I have played 4300 hands since that 1000) but I am tighening my play and I'm sure it will be in a few thousand hands.

[RacersEdge]

You really just need to 1} read a book to understand the theory and 2) just become more disciplined. Playing multipple tables should help you not "get bored" and play weak hands.

In SSHE (Miller's book), he says treat the SB position is like the late position - but add any suited cards. I find this pretty good advice.

SSHE's take on pocket pairs is probably the loosest aspect of the starting hand recommendation for a LOOSE game. (That'
s the other thing to realize - what you play depends on the type of game you are in). But SSHE says to play pocket pairs from any position in a loose game - even against a raise. The theory is that the implied odds are so great with these hands that it can be profitable. I have loosened up in the PP category - even cold calling from late position if a few players are in - but I have hard time cold calling a raise from EP with PP below 88/77. But the book even mentions that playing the PP so liberally should be adjusted if you think your game doesn't make it worthwhile.