Comments on this hand, getting berated [Archive]

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Pitcher

05-26-2005, 08:24 AM

Hi All,

I played the following hand the other day. I want some comments on the way it was played.

A little background. UTG+1 was a tight hyper aggressive player (postflop). The CO and BB were both LAG's, but very poor. BB is one of the worst players I have seen at any level.

I thought that I played this hand fairly well, but perhaps should have raised the turn (I had to be behind at that point). Many will argue I should have mucked my hand when it was 3 bet, but CO could have a very weak holding (he 3 bet solid players with hands like J-5 off and 93 suited) so I couldn't put any credence in the 3 bet. The BB call was also meaningless, IMO, he would call with any two cards including 72 and 32 off.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, 3 folds, CO 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (12.66 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, CO calls $1.50 (All-In), BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.38 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)
BB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (15.38 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)
BB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 20.38 BB

At any rate, after the hand over, UTG+1 started calling me an idiot and a moron, saying I would never win at this level etc. etc. I really did not think it was that bad under the circumstances. Thoughts?

Result below

Pitcher

I won the pot with trip two's and UTG+1 had AQ, for TPTK

Jeffage

05-26-2005, 08:29 AM

Limping with this hand UTG in a typical Party 15 game will cost you a lot of money. Regardless of the players, I probably fold when it's 2 back to me (and could get capped) if I made the mistake of limping in the first place. On the flop and beyond, it looks fine.

Jeff

DcifrThs

05-26-2005, 08:33 AM

i guess the theme these past few days is bad preflop decisions because of the cold call w/ KTs...

this is the same type of hand you a) called w/ utg (-ev) and b) called 2 back after a raise and reraise (very very -ev)

on the flop i'd consider 3betting getting 2:1 on your draw and 2:1 on your money going in there w/ the other two callers.

then on the turn check call, or just call as you did.

river good raise,

-Barron

seabass74

05-26-2005, 08:34 AM

I muck this everytime w/o much thought... once you call the initial bet I think you can dump it when it's 3 bets back to you. Bad players get good hands sometimes too:) The worst thing that can happen is you hit your ace on the flop, it only takes a few times of that happening for you to learn to not like this hand.

Don't sweat it too much, just stack the chips, and tighten up!!!

Good luck.

PokerBob

05-26-2005, 08:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
on the flop i'd consider 3betting getting 2:1 on your draw and 2:1 on your money going in there w/ the other two callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought this as well, but I'm not sure it matters. We may have to discount our equity a smidge as we may be up against QQ, but I suppose our A outs may be good occasionally. If that other dude isn't all-in, then I think it's an easy flop 3-bet. Am I wrong?

hockey1

05-26-2005, 09:05 AM

Preflop's bad -- no question. But I really hate the flop bet. You're drawing to a big hand and want opponents around to pay you off. Betting out isn't going to fold anybody or clean up any outs. And you KNOW that either UTG+1 or CO is going to bet this or raise you. If you bet and they raise it'll probably drive out your customers for your flush draw. If you check and let them bet then you can raise when it gets back to you if you get a couple of callers in between.

Pitcher

05-26-2005, 09:07 AM

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the comments. This hand has to be -ev to limp UTG and ---ev when it is 3 bet back. I seriously considered dumping it. There were only a few flops that allow me to continue the hand and they are easy to figure...2 or 3 clubs, 2-3 deuces (trips, quad deuces) or 3 aces. I would muck any other flop and consider how dumb my 3 bet call was. Still, on this table I know some things that make it less -EV. I know that if I hit my hand I will get paid off by the BB for ALL the bets and raises unless he has no pair and no A high at the river. He did it over and over again. Here are the PokerTracker stats on this guy.

251 hands, VPIP 100%, went to showdown, 79%, pre-flop raise 77%, won at showdown 26%, etc.

This was over 251 hands. He never folded a hand to even a 4 bet.....

Shockingly, the CO wasn't much better. How these players were playing at this level was beyond me, but they were clearly taking a shot. BTW, I am a regular at this level and over the past couple of weeks, have been specifically looking for either of these players.

That is why I played the hand and why I didn't fold when it was 3 bet.

This brings me to the comment by DcifrThs....if I know that the BB will not fold and UTG+1 is likely to cap it, why not re-raise the flop. Indeed, why not? I think I should have.
Pitcher