programmer needed - will pay

[imported_bingobazza]

Hi guys

I want a piece of software like 'fold em' that will auto fold my hands during play so that I can play more tables. It has been suggested to me that this software is illegal, but I have checked with Eurobet ( a party skin) and it isnt. Unfortunately, the guy who developed fold em isnt responding to emails and seems like a complete donk!!

However, now that I know this software is possible, I cant wait to start 20 tabling. Im willing to pay someone a decent wage to develop this software for me, or I can buy it from anyone who will put the time into developing it.

Cheers

Bingo

[OrcaDK]

[ QUOTE ]
but I have checked with Eurobet ( a party skin) and it isnt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Elaborate please.

[imported_bingobazza]

I made a post here a week or so ago asking about an alternative to fold-em. I was told here that using this software could be detrimental to your bankroll, (confiscation) but I have an email from Eurobet saying that software add ons are fine, (except bot type programs) as long as you are over 18.

Just to clarify what I would like the software to do, as Ive had a few replies to my request for help. In short....everything that fold-em does, plus a little more. Foldem allows you to predetermine a range of hands from any position that you would like to play. All hands outside this range will be folded without human intervention. You have the ability to pre-save hand range templates for use on tight, loose, aggressive, passive tables etc, and can switch between them as the table demands it.

One additional feature I would like in the software is the ability to only see a table window when a decision is needed, and for that window to stay open until a decision has been made.

So, if you wanted to play ultra tight, and only see AA-TT 7OTB, then the table window would never 'pop up' when you are in that position unless you have AA-TT. When it does pop up, it would remain there until you decided what to do. Once the decision is made, it would vanish.

I hope this clears up what I am after....I can promise a decent hourly rate to whoever takes up this programming job.

Cheers

Bingo

[OrcaDK]

[ QUOTE ]
(except bot type programs)

[/ QUOTE ]

That settles it.

[sublime]

i dont care what euro says, its wrong. having software that tracks your opponents patterns (PT/GT etc) is one thing, having a program that does work for you is another.

[Guthrie]

Um, what you described IS a bot-type program.

[Huxley]

The distinction between what is "bot-like" and what is acceptable is bound to become a larger issue in the near future.

This is just a request for an "auto-fold" feature, with the added ability to make his own decision when it is not a mindless one. So he's asking for a software tool at the most basic level of machine intervention and i'm not surprised the poker sites don't object to its use.

With the prevalence of online collusion, and the real-time analysis capabilities provided to savvy players by PT, PO, Poker Academy, TTHM, etc., this isn't even the proverbial raindrop in the ocean.

Online poker lends itself to increased automation and the application of state-of-the-art AI technology (actually, its the perfect playground /images/graemlins/smirk.gif). Serious players who refuse to recognize this are choosing a -EV starting point.

[RedManPlus]

"folded without human intervention"

** This is a bot. **

Correspondence saying "software add-ons are OK"...
Is extremely vague.

Why don't you post the email.

If this is actually OK with Party Poker...
I could have a "Pre-Flop Bot" done in a month or two.
(I have a full time trading business...
So it's not a priority).

Has Party ever posted a list or specific guidelines...
In terms of what software is acceptable?

My understanding is no.

If it's gray area stuff or banned...
Then you better spend a lot of time...
Designing "anti-detection measures"...
Such as running your Bot on a different computer...
Or running multiple virtual machines on one computer...
Programming random behavior into the Bot, etc...

Remember...
They take screen shots...
And can see exactly what you see.

I'd bet that most sites have Shill Bots...
Playing and filling out the tables.

rm+

/images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[illunious]

[ QUOTE ]

Has Party ever posted a list or specific guidelines...
In terms of what software is acceptable?

My understanding is no.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
7. Anti-Cheating Software.

We are committed to detecting and preventing software programs which are designed to enable artificial intelligence ("AI Software") to play on our site such as, but not limited to opponent-profiling, player collusion, cheating software or anything else that we deem enables you to have an unfair advantage over other players. You acknowledge that the Company will take measures to detect and prevent the use of such programs and AI Software using methods including but not limited to screen scraping or reading the list of currently running programs on a player's computer and you agree not to use any AI Software and/or any such programs.

[/ QUOTE ] link (http://www.partypoker.com/about_us/legal_information.html)

[_2000Flushes]

[ QUOTE ]
Online poker lends itself to increased automation and the application of state-of-the-art AI technology (actually, its the perfect playground /images/graemlins/smirk.gif). Serious players who refuse to recognize this are choosing a -EV starting point.

[/ QUOTE ]

So as automated programs become more feasible, bots become acceptable?

Come on, man. This isn't a matter of backwards-minded people who think zippers are evil, bots are illegal no matter how good they become.

-2kF

[Huxley]

I'm not trying to make any kind of ethical statement about bot acceptability, i'm just facing reality.

People who are serious about making money (ie. financing their ongoing lives) playing online poker are going to utilize any software that gives them an advantage. If there are analytical tools that allow you to play 20 or 40 tables simultaneously, without making any mistakes and having instant access to a wealth of statistical measures that ensure you are milking the last drop of profit from your play, you'd be a fool to ignore them.

As alluded to in my prior post in this thread, this is a slippery slope that IMO is unavoidable - anyone who can run a CPU farm in their basement and make $20K per 24 hours without being detected and with only intermittent human intervention isn't going to stop voluntarily.

[2easy]

[ QUOTE ]
...anyone who can run a CPU farm in their basement and make $20K per 24 hours without being detected and with only intermittent human intervention isn't going to stop voluntarily.

[/ QUOTE ]

and just what do you think the likelihood of not being detected would be if your account showed those parameters?

[MixedNuts]

If opponent profiling is considered "cheating". What do they think we do with the hand histories they make available?

Doesn't make sense.

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[teddyFBI]

Where's the line, though? What if you program the very same application to fold your foldable hands, BUT ALSO auto-raise every AA - QQ, with you then taking over the play "manually" post-flop?? This distinction you're trying to make between a folding-only bot, and one that can act with bets, calls, and raises is a fictitious one. Fold'Em is a bot.

Another reason I'd be very cautious about using something that auto-acts, is that even while it may only cost $25 to buy, all it takes is for the program to malfunction once and fold one of your AA hands, and boom, that's a 3+ BB loss ($100 at the 15/30) No piece of software is worth that.

[RedManPlus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Has Party ever posted a list or specific guidelines...
In terms of what software is acceptable?

My understanding is no.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
7. Anti-Cheating Software.

We are committed to detecting and preventing software programs which are designed to enable artificial intelligence ("AI Software") to play on our site such as, but not limited to opponent-profiling, player collusion, cheating software or anything else that we deem enables you to have an unfair advantage over other players. You acknowledge that the Company will take measures to detect and prevent the use of such programs and AI Software using methods including but not limited to screen scraping or reading the list of currently running programs on a player's computer and you agree not to use any AI Software and/or any such programs.

[/ QUOTE ] link (http://www.partypoker.com/about_us/legal_information.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks...
But this just itemizes certain generic categories of poker software...
Most of which contain zero AI code...
To which they are "not limited to".

The "surveilance guys" at Party Poker...
Are certainly familiar with all popular poker software...
And should make specific lists.

For example, Poker Tracker ok...
But PokerEdge is 100% profiling and banned.

Your money is on the line.

They should be crystal clear...
Not making arbitrary decisions on a case by case basis.

But they will never do this.
Being vague gives them TOTAL power over your account.

rm+

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[imported_bingobazza]

I have no desire to cheat at poker, and dont need to. When I opened up my account at eurobet, I told them on the phone, and by email that my intention was to use a fold em type program. Here is the email and their response which they sent to me after our phone conversation at my request.

Hi there,

On some of the other poker websites that I play on, I use a piece of software to fold my hands when I play multiple tables. The software can be found at www.fold-em.com. (http://www.fold-em.com.) Simply put, I define that hands in this software that I do not want to play, and my cards are automatically folded for me, meaning I can take more time to concentrate on the important hands that I want to play.

Can you please tell me if this is against your terms and conditions? I havent yet used this software on your site. I do not want to risk having my account closed and my bankroll confiscated, but do not want to play heavily on your site if there is any risk of this.

A prompt reply would be appreciated.

regards


account name - xxxxxxxxxxxx




and their reply..........


From : <customer-services@eurobet.com>
Sent : 19 May 2005 11:26:42
To : XXXXXXXXXXXXX@hotmail.com
Subject : Eurobet

| | | Inbox


Dear Mr XXXXX,

We would like to inform you that you can use any software as long as you are
over 18 years old.

Kind Regards
Lina
Eurobet Customer Service





| | | | | Inbox


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No mention of bot programs in their email.

FWIW, I use poker edge as well, and have never had any problems.

I dont really think 'fold - em' is an AI program. After all, it isnt making any decisions for you, is it? Its a labour saving device, as your decisions are already made. I mean, its not playing any hands for you, its just carrying out your most basic wishes by folding the cards that YOU define....its an automatic toaster FFS.

Im not a computer expert, but if this is a bot or AI, then so is the 'auto post blind' box.

Bingo

[RedManPlus]

Your post is completely meaningless.

I can't believe you are posting...
That this or that is OK...
Based on a 10 word email from some chickie...
That has no clue about poker software categories.

Are you 18?

Life is full of risks.
Is this how you manage risk?

A Pre-Flop Bot is a BOT.
A Bot may or may not have AI decision making code.

Poker sites can ban you for any reason...
Including bad breath.

Make your stake...
Keep on tip-toeing through the Minefield...
Take advantage before the good times and easy money come to an end...
Cheat if you must...
But don't give us this crapola...
That some chickie in EU said Bots are OK.

rm+

/images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ThePike]

[ QUOTE ]

We would like to inform you that you can use any software as long as you are over 18 years old.


Kind Regards
Lina
Eurobet Customer Service


[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see why the age should have anything to do with it. It's really as she even doesn't know what the word "software" means... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[OrcaDK]

[ QUOTE ]
From : <customer-services@eurobet.com>
Sent : 19 May 2005 11:26:42
To : XXXXXXXXXXXXX@hotmail.com
Subject : Eurobet

| | | Inbox


Dear Mr XXXXX,

We would like to inform you that you can use any software as long as you are
over 18 years old.

Kind Regards
Lina
Eurobet Customer Service

[/ QUOTE ]

... And you obviously got the usual reply confirming that support dit not read your email.

[imported_bingobazza]

the point is I have written confirmation from a company represnetative saying its Ok to do what I asked....WRITTEN CONFIRMATION....

[imported_bingobazza]

[ QUOTE ]
Your post is completely meaningless.

I can't believe you are posting...
That this or that is OK...
Based on a 10 word email from some chickie...
That has no clue about poker software categories.

Are you 18?

Life is full of risks.
Is this how you manage risk?

A Pre-Flop Bot is a BOT.
A Bot may or may not have AI decision making code.

Poker sites can ban you for any reason...
Including bad breath.

Make your stake...
Keep on tip-toeing through the Minefield...
Take advantage before the good times and easy money come to an end...
Cheat if you must...
But don't give us this crapola...
That some chickie in EU said Bots are OK.

rm+

/images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Diablo wannabe?

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
the point is I have written confirmation from a company represnetative saying its Ok to do what I asked....WRITTEN CONFIRMATION....

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think that will mean jack when it comes to a head, I think you're mistaken.

eastbay

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
If opponent profiling is considered "cheating". What do they think we do with the hand histories they make available?

Doesn't make sense.


[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the key phrase:

"We are committed to detecting and preventing software programs which are designed to enable artificial intelligence ("AI Software") to play on our site...."

PT doesn't play for you.

Regards,

T

[3putt]

>Unfortunately, the guy who developed fold em isnt responding to emails and seems like a complete donk!!

Bingo, I'm the donk behind Fold'em! :-) Please resend your email because as far as I can see I havent received any email from you... :-/ Anyway I'd be glad to answer all your questions.

[CaptSensible]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Has Party ever posted a list or specific guidelines...
In terms of what software is acceptable?

My understanding is no.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
7. Anti-Cheating Software.

We are committed to detecting and preventing software programs which are designed to enable artificial intelligence ("AI Software") to play on our site such as, but not limited to opponent-profiling, player collusion, cheating software or anything else that we deem enables you to have an unfair advantage over other players. You acknowledge that the Company will take measures to detect and prevent the use of such programs and AI Software using methods including but not limited to screen scraping or reading the list of currently running programs on a player's computer and you agree not to use any AI Software and/or any such programs.

[/ QUOTE ] link (http://www.partypoker.com/about_us/legal_information.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

The program that the poster is talking about does not give the player an unfair advantage. He's just telling the program to do what he would do anyways. I've thought how nice it would be to have a program to automatically fold hands that I would fold anyways. I don't know why this kind of a program would be illeagle. It's not even in the same country as cheating. let alone ballpark. But I don't know very much about anything.