Do you ever limp with 24s in late position?

[baronzeus]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero ????


I was at the fishiest table ever. At least 2 more people were going to call behind me. I was getting 7 or 8 to 1 at least.

What do you think?

[imported_ncray]

I think this is very questionable. At a passive table it might be very slightly +EV with good postflop play. There's just so much that can beat it. Any flush you make with it might be losing to a higher flush. If anyone with a premium hand raises behind you, you'd be kicking yourself about having to put in another bet.

[stretch22]

i think fold.

[KeysrSoze]

If I was button with 7 callers and blinds were 0% preflop raise. maybe.

[baronzeus]

Consider the same situation with 34s or 45s

[milesdyson]

I'd limp 54s behind 5 limpers with loose passive blinds.

[Entity]

MP2 isn't late position.

[ClaytonN]

No.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
MP2 isn't late position.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, I meant to type middle.

45s against 7 opponents is > 13% equity.
Folding such an easy postflop playable hand is definitely -EV.

[Stinkybeaver]

No I don't. Every once in a while I'll limp 34s but ussually I don't it is not a good thing to do.

[Ivanapolis]

No. Maybe I raise or 3-bet, when I am drunken, but I never call.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP2 isn't late position.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, I meant to type middle.

45s against 7 opponents is > 13% equity.
Folding such an easy postflop playable hand is definitely -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Position is a lot more important in hold'em than equity, AFAIC.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP2 isn't late position.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, I meant to type middle.

45s against 7 opponents is > 13% equity.
Folding such an easy postflop playable hand is definitely -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Position is a lot more important in hold'em than equity, AFAIC.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no clue what that acronymn stands for, but I def agree on the position comment

OP: you'd be surprised how many sticky situations you can get into with small connectors .. they aren't as simple as made out to be

[WarLordAG]

I'd fold, it's essentially a dominated hand. You may catch that mirable flop once in a blue moon, but it's rare. Even if I made a flush with 24s I'd be worried someone else had a higher flush.

[ThaHero]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP2 isn't late position.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, I meant to type middle.

45s against 7 opponents is > 13% equity.
Folding such an easy postflop playable hand is definitely -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Position is a lot more important in hold'em than equity, AFAIC.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no clue what that acronymn stands for, but I def agree on the position comment

OP: you'd be surprised how many sticky situations you can get into with small connectors .. they aren't as simple as made out to be

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Very often they flop second best hands, which are costly. Usually if I don't flop the nuts or a very strong draw I let them go. In late position I'd call a small connector with many callers and passive blinds just to see a flop, but MP I'm not so sure.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP2 isn't late position.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, I meant to type middle.

45s against 7 opponents is > 13% equity.
Folding such an easy postflop playable hand is definitely -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Position is a lot more important in hold'em than equity, AFAIC.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no clue what that acronymn stands for, but I def agree on the position comment

OP: you'd be surprised how many sticky situations you can get into with small connectors .. they aren't as simple as made out to be

[/ QUOTE ]


Hmm, can you give me some examples? I've played them a lot, and it's usually pretty cut and dry.

If I'm getting better than 10:1, I call for a gutshot.

If I'm getting better than 3:1, I bet/call my flush draw.

If I'm getting better than 3:1, I bet/call my straight draw.

If I have a straight flush draw, I bet/raise.

With 2 pair, I bet/raise, as well as any trips. Trips are dangerous because my kicker is so low but if I hit them it's more than +EV to bet/raise with it.

[Schwartzy61]

In short, no I would never call with 42s in late position even if every person was guaranteed to see the flop.

You'd have to have solid reads on every player at the table to play this hand profitably postflop.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if I made a flush with 24s I'd be worried someone else had a higher flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are weak tight.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

I call if I'm sure it won't get raised behind me. It's close though. How many people would you need before you called a raise from the BB with 42s? 3 people? 4 people?

Krishan

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
How many people would you need before you called a raise from the BB with 42s?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd call with 3, but your implied odds are a bit better in that sort of situation. Obviously it depends on the PFR and lots of other stuff in that instance, but if I'm playing 42s here, I want the Button. I might feel ok playing it in the CO if Button was tight or otherwise predictable.

Rob

[Sarge85]

I'm still dumping it - even on the button i think this is a muck. - I mean, it's almost saying you'll play any two suited.

I'm trying to embrace the "Love thy Button" mantra, but I just don't think I'm going to win enough in the long run to make this call.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Sasnak]

No.

[AmarilloJim1]

My vote is fold.

[mlb3zr]

depends on the people left to act. if they are like 50+/0 after 200 hands or something, I'd give it a go. it's a pretty easy hand to play postflop, and the implied odds on a flush or straight are pretty sweet.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call with 3, but your implied odds are a bit better in that sort of situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are they? I don't think they are that different. More opponents typically means more implied odds.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still dumping it - even on the button i think this is a muck. - I mean, it's almost saying you'll play any two suited.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. 42s makes 2 straights. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Krishan

[PuckNPoker]

Maybe im weak-tight or just dont know how to play low suited connectors. But I dont find many situations where low suited connectors are playable. If there are 6 people in the pot, sure 45s is playable but you are playing for 2 pair or better. Any flop except a miracle one is leaving you drawing for another card, that even if you get there may not be best (im not talking about flushes or straights, but a weak 2 pair).

So in the above case I fold, it would probably take 7 really bad players limping in with me on the button before I even think about it. But any normal table with even one good player in the hand makes this unplayable imho.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe im weak-tight or just dont know how to play low suited connectors. But I dont find many situations where low suited connectors are playable. If there are 6 people in the pot, sure 45s is playable but you are playing for 2 pair or better. Any flop except a miracle one is leaving you drawing for another card, that even if you get there may not be best (im not talking about flushes or straights, but a weak 2 pair).

So in the above case I fold, it would probably take 7 really bad players limping in with me on the button before I even think about it. But any normal table with even one good player in the hand makes this unplayable imho.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either you have the odds to call a bet on the flop or you dont.

[PuckNPoker]

7 horrible players to a flop you have 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif flop comes 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif SB bets and everyone calls. You have a pair, BFD, BSD. But almost all your outs are tainted imho. Is a 5 on the turn a good card? Board pairs the 6 on the turn? Any other overcard flops SB bets all call, tons of money in the pot, where are you in the hand? Still feel good about it, but it s a huge pot right?

[Kumubou]

[ QUOTE ]
7 horrible players to a flop you have 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif flop comes 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif SB bets and everyone calls. You have a pair, BFD, BSD. But almost all your outs are tainted imho. Is a 5 on the turn a good card? Board pairs the 6 on the turn? Any other overcard flops SB bets all call, tons of money in the pot, where are you in the hand? Still feel good about it, but it s a huge pot right?

[/ QUOTE ]
13 SB to you on the flop, closing the action? You have 5 outs to two pair or better and backdoor draws. While a lot of those outs are tainted to various degrees, that is more than enough overlay to peel one off.

13 BB to you on the turn? The 5 is an bleh card; you pick up a gutshot but if you spike a 2 anyone with a 3 has a straight. The problem with that straight is that you have the ass end of it, so you can not feel much confidence in your holdings. Regardless, you have odds to peel one more card. The 6s or 10s pairing sucks ass -- now your two pair draw is no good and going for trip 4s is dicey at best; I fold that cheese. An overcard puts you in the same situtation as you were in previously; take another card since you have the odds to draw. Jf you pick up a diamond, you pretty much have to call any number of bets, as your draw is now strong.

Do I feel good about the hand? No; but drawing is still your best option here.

(Aside: I would fold 24s pre-flop. The lowest I go in LP with lots of limpers in is 54s.)

-K

[PuckNPoker]

I understand what you are saying, and I know that you have odds to draw (even though you are drawing extremely thin imho, except the flush draw and somewhat the straight draw).

But even though you have the best position, suitedness (low but a flush is a strong hand), and mild connectedness. I dont think all of that makes up for the inherent weakness of the hand. Id rather have T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in that spot, at least you'd have SOME high card value even if removes your straight possibilities. (not that I would play that hand either)

IMHO, low suited connector values are overrated. 67s is about as low as I got, 45s if the table is real loose and bad, and only from the button and CO. I seriously doubt I am costing myself money with that philisophy. But I would love to discuss it.

[WarLordAG]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even if I made a flush with 24s I'd be worried someone else had a higher flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are weak tight.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm very much tight aggressive. I don't get myself into situations with crap hands where I would need to be passive. Long term I just don't consider this a playable hand under any circumstances. I just don't feel it'll be profitable.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even if I made a flush with 24s I'd be worried someone else had a higher flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are weak tight.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm very much tight aggressive. I don't get myself into situations with crap hands where I would need to be passive. Long term I just don't consider this a playable hand under any circumstances. I just don't feel it'll be profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

def. weak tight

flush over flush is rare regardless of which flush you have, as long as the board is only 3flushed

it is more common with a 4high flush than say a Q or J high one .. but for the most part if the board doesn't 4flush

[waynethetrain]

I think I'd like to know how you found a $2-$4 table like that when I haven't seen a $1-$2 table like that in at least 6 months. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[WarLordAG]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd like to know how you found a $2-$4 table like that when I haven't seen a $1-$2 table like that in at least 6 months. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say I wouldn't be raising, however the thought would cross my mind that someone may have a higher flush.

Ok, so you want to hit a flush or straight with this hand. How often are you going to have the odds to draw to it by the river or make it on the flop, and is it profitable to call raises pre flop with this hand with those odds?

Not quite sure the odds of the 2, perhaps I should look it up, I just really think you're going to lose more long term than the 1 or 2 times this hand works out. Especially at the micro limits.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand what you are saying, and I know that you have odds to draw (even though you are drawing extremely thin imho, except the flush draw and somewhat the straight draw).

But even though you have the best position, suitedness (low but a flush is a strong hand), and mild connectedness. I dont think all of that makes up for the inherent weakness of the hand. Id rather have T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in that spot, at least you'd have SOME high card value even if removes your straight possibilities. (not that I would play that hand either)

IMHO, low suited connector values are overrated. 67s is about as low as I got, 45s if the table is real loose and bad, and only from the button and CO. I seriously doubt I am costing myself money with that philisophy. But I would love to discuss it.

[/ QUOTE ]


Are you kidding me? You'd rather have T2s?

Can you EVER expect to win with your pair of T?
.....

Even if you flop top pair, you're drawing to 5 outs (or even 3), because with all those people drawing against you, your reverse implied odds are terrible, if you arent already dominated.

[PokerBob]

If there a 18 limpers, limp. Otherwise, dump it.

[Fantam]

I think you were right to call.

And I will read all the other posts tomorrow when I wake up from my drunken slumber. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

You were getting good implied odds if you hit the flop.

Sheesh I am getting tired. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I understand what you are saying, and I know that you have odds to draw (even though you are drawing extremely thin imho, except the flush draw and somewhat the straight draw).

But even though you have the best position, suitedness (low but a flush is a strong hand), and mild connectedness. I dont think all of that makes up for the inherent weakness of the hand. Id rather have T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in that spot, at least you'd have SOME high card value even if removes your straight possibilities. (not that I would play that hand either)

IMHO, low suited connector values are overrated. 67s is about as low as I got, 45s if the table is real loose and bad, and only from the button and CO. I seriously doubt I am costing myself money with that philisophy. But I would love to discuss it.

[/ QUOTE ]


Are you kidding me? You'd rather have T2s?

Can you EVER expect to win with your pair of T?
.....

Even if you flop top pair, you're drawing to 5 outs (or even 3), because with all those people drawing against you, your reverse implied odds are terrible, if you arent already dominated.

[/ QUOTE ]

So let me get this straight... You think a pair of 4's will be more win more often than a pair of T's?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I understand what you are saying, and I know that you have odds to draw (even though you are drawing extremely thin imho, except the flush draw and somewhat the straight draw).

But even though you have the best position, suitedness (low but a flush is a strong hand), and mild connectedness. I dont think all of that makes up for the inherent weakness of the hand. Id rather have T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in that spot, at least you'd have SOME high card value even if removes your straight possibilities. (not that I would play that hand either)

IMHO, low suited connector values are overrated. 67s is about as low as I got, 45s if the table is real loose and bad, and only from the button and CO. I seriously doubt I am costing myself money with that philisophy. But I would love to discuss it.

[/ QUOTE ]


Are you kidding me? You'd rather have T2s?

Can you EVER expect to win with your pair of T?
.....

Even if you flop top pair, you're drawing to 5 outs (or even 3), because with all those people drawing against you, your reverse implied odds are terrible, if you arent already dominated.

[/ QUOTE ]

So let me get this straight... You think a pair of 4's will be more win more often than a pair of T's?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, a pair of Ts will win more, but it will still win too rarely to justify a call down to the river.

A STRAIGHT wins more than a pair of Ts

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]

No, a pair of Ts will win more, but it will still win too rarely to justify a call down to the river.

A STRAIGHT wins more than a pair of Ts

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you overvalue 24s straight possibilities. And undervalue the possibility of being dominated or having your two pair counterfeited. 42s is an extremely weak hand and your opponents would have to play both horribly and predictably (way worse than a standard .5/1 Party table), as well as you playing excellent, to make up all of its shortcomings. Imho. 42s reminds me of a really bad omaha hands, where even if you get that miracle flop reasonable hands are going to have redraws to a better hand.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

No, a pair of Ts will win more, but it will still win too rarely to justify a call down to the river.

A STRAIGHT wins more than a pair of Ts

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you overvalue 24s straight possibilities. And undervalue the possibility of being dominated or having your two pair counterfeited. 42s is an extremely weak hand and your opponents would have to play both horribly and predictably (way worse than a standard .5/1 Party table), as well as you playing excellent, to make up all of its shortcomings. Imho. 42s reminds me of a really bad omaha hands, where even if you get that miracle flop reasonable hands are going to have redraws to a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


Well, like always, there's a chance that your 2 pair gets counterfeited. But that chance is essentially a 6 outer, I'll play my 2 pair like i have the nuts.