Why do people like Pete Rose? He's a disgrace...

[IrishHand]

(1) He you bet on baseball, breaking the one rule that every player learns their first day in uniform and the one rule every other player obeys. It's the only rule posted in every MLB team's dugout.

(2) He served time for cheating on his income taxes. A convicted criminal - some hero.

(3) He charges fans obscene amounts for his autograph. Nothing quite like profiting off someone's admiration of you.

(3) He's arrogant and a hot dog. It's fine if you're Babe Ruth, not so fine if your only purpose in life is hitting singles for 20+ years.

(4) He refuses to piblicly admit wrongdoing, despite having his lawyer do so in his agreement with MLB, and despite the conclusive evidence that he bet on baseball and probably games he participated in.

He's basically everything most fans despise in a player. Why are fans are so supportive of Rose that they're effectively pushing baseball to broker some sort of compromise with him despite his continually defiant stance?

The man's a petty criminal, a habitual liar, and a compulsive gambler. I assume people still like the guy because of what he did as a player. I just think it's pretty senseless to maintain admiration for an individual in light of the disgrace to baseball he ultimately became (that's assuming, of course, that the aformentioned personal defects were absent during his playing career, which I tend to doubt).

Irish

(portions lifted from various ESPN.com articles)

[brad]

heh.

hes an american everyman. doesnt claim to be smart or even super talented. claims to work hard.

p.s. gee, he resisted tax collectors. how unamerican.

[Dynasty]

In time, Americans can forgive almost anything.

[Glenn]

1) Everyone here bets on stuff. Betting is fun. It was never proven, nor did he admit that he bet on baseball. I don't know the truth, but I have rarely heard him be accused of fixing games which would be the real issue.

2) A few things worse than income tax cheating in my eyes...

A. Murder (OJ)
B. Rape/Sexual Assault (Lots of players)
C. DUI (Everyone famous)
D. Income tax rates (The federal goverment)

I mean, he should have paid his taxes, but really I hate taxes too so I can see where he's coming from /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.

3) Everyone charges a lot for their autograph these days. Most stars have exclusive contracts where they can only sign autographs for Upper Deck or something. At least Pete, unlike Barry Bonds or ARod, actually needs the money.

3 #2) He played harder than anyone. Lots of players are arrogant, but it affect their game. When Bonds is watching his home run from the batter's box and it hits the wall, it hurts his team.

4) What conclusive evidence? Actually, I am looking at the evidence right now on baseball archive...maybe I'll like it.

I like Pete Rose because he played baseball to win. He wasn't one of these Nancy-boy superstars. My favorite Pete Rose story is as follows:

In the 197x all-star game, Rose took out promising young catcher Ray Fosse during a play at the plate, separating his shoulder, and effectively destroying his career. When asked why he would do such a thing in the all-star game, he said "I didn't realize they turned it into a 6th grade girls softball games in the middle".

That's why I like Pete Rose.

[MMMMMM]

I really don't hold any of the things he was publicly censured for against him--I just never cared much for his demeanor. He seems like the sort of guy I would especially enjoy check-raising at the poker table.

[RINCON]

Hustle,Hustle...clocked Ray Fosse...
Would you want him on your team...i.e..Randy Moss,Micheal Irvin...etc...
Yes Pete Rose is an [censored] but he played ball!!!1


RINCON

[scalf]

/forums/images/icons/frown.gif pete was a winner...everywhere he played...he also played to win every game...ty cobb was a nice guy compared to chuck....people hate him because he is arrogant...without rose in bb's hof...cooperstown loses validity....on the west side of cincinatti...he'd get a free beer there for life...

pete rose...he's a winner....gl /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

[IrishHand]

Maybe the reason he hustled so much and was known as a 'winner' was that he had a lot of money riding on the games. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[marbles]

Another athlete you should "despise," if your arguments hold:

1. A habitual gambler (both legal and illegal).
2. Womanizer with the wife and kids at home, leading to a current ugly divorce.
3. Charges market value (or "an obscene amount," if you will) for appearances, his name or his symbol on anything.
4. Still refuses to talk to Sports Illustrated after a petty spat nearly a decade ago.

Of course, you know I'm talking about Michael Jordan, and none of my points come from espn.com.

Rose is not much worse... He just has no savvy for PR.

[scalf]

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif marbles...gr8 points...prople love to hate pete...and i think he thrives on that...he was a hell of a road player...lol...gl /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Andy B]

1) I am in the process of reading the Dowd Report. It's taking a while because it's a big, bloated document, and my printer was acting up for a while. My understanding, admittedly mostly from reading essays by Bill James on the matter over the last dozen years or so, is that essentially all of the evidence against can be traced to one man, Paul Janszen, who had an axe to grind. There is good evidence that the bets Rose is accused of making were actually Janszen's.

2) I would conservatively guess that a majority of people who post here under-report gambling winnings. Are you saying that he is an unsympathetic character becuase he served time for it?

3) How many big-name athletes don't charge big bucks for their autographs? People are willing to pay the price and promoters are willing to pay large fees for him to come to ball card shows. Why shouldn't he take the money? Would you turn down a several-thousand-dollar fee for a personal appearance?

4) Have you read the agreement he signed? It's about three pages long and it's available, along with all the other evidence, at www.dowdreport.com (http://www.dowdreport.com) . There was no admission of wrong-doing, by Pete or his lawyer.

While I never really cared for him, I think that Pete was admirable as a player, up until the point that he artificially extended his career for the sake of breaking records. Pete always hustled. He had somewhat modest ability, but he worked his ass off and made himself into a great player. This is why people love him.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Mark,

A long time ago I read a Playboy interview of Rose (yeah, I used to read Playboy for the interview). He came across as an ignorant jerk and little he has done since changed my mind.

But he still belongs in the Hall of Fame IMO.

Regards,

Rick

[bernie]

what makes MLB itself so sacred?

MLB is a disgrace to all pro sports. i wont pay another dime to any team.

why?

1) they extort the fans, theyve done that quite a few times,
2) they dont field competitive teams other than 5 out of 30
3) it's a game of money, not of baseball. it's run like a business, not a sport. sure all pro sports are, but at least they have some different competition. see #2
4) MLB's past isnt so pure and lilly white either, with it's history of racism. doesnt exist? ask the owners of the mariners how many hoops they had to jump through because they were japanese.

it amazes me when the b-ball purists really think that MLB is a game and that any team can win. it's a f*cking joke.

i live in seattle, and i hate the mariners....yes, im a minority...sorry, i dont jump on a band wagon because a team has 3 great years out of 30. then holds the team hostage against the fans and the city. seattle will not win the world series. ever. they dont need to. one guy i debated with this about said the fans wont come if theyre not winning. HELLO...they are winning, they just didnt make the playoffs. as long as the fans are going to keep coming, what incentive is there for them to go to the playoffs? not much...

they couldve made a playoff run this last year, but the office refused to try and get players in mid season*. one reason pinella left.

*what is a league where 1/2 way through the season you can decide to build your team to where it hardly resembles the team you started? seattle did it in '95. where teams can sacrifice any shot at winning, and trade off their best players? boy, that's great for fan interest. i guess in the cities where theyre gaining the players, but in the overall picture, i think it hurts the league overall...

MLB sucks...and any fan who complains about how it's run yet still goes to the games and buys the merchandise has only themselves to blame. flat out. but keep the blinders on and your head in the sand. selective ignorance is bliss, i guess.

quit whining.

pete rose should be in the hall because he's the all time hit leader. is anyone even close to him? the hall is about accomplishment on the field, no off the field. so anything that happened off the field should have no bearing on the decision. ty cobb doesnt have the best background either, along with many other players. in fact im sure youd be suprised at what A holes many of those players are. i think you have to be a little arrogant to help drive you to that level in any endeavor you go into. it's a common trait.

sorry, but i also dont see MLB players as role models either. never did. and that shouldnt be factored in for his possible induction either...

MLB....you can have it. and stick the hall of fame with it.

b

[Bill Murphy]

"In the 197x all-star game, Rose took out promising young catcher Ray Fosse during a play at the plate, separating his shoulder, and effectively destroying his career. When asked why he would do such a thing in the all-star game, he said "I didn't realize they turned it into a 6th grade girls softball games in the middle". "

When Pete's 44 game hit streak in 1977 was ended on a 9th inning strikeout, he whined about Gene Garber pitching him "like it was the 7th game of the World Series."

[Michael Davis]

Any love for OJ?

You know who I am. This is AC, Goddammit.

When are we going to forgive the principal from Ferris Bueller? He had a promising geriatric career ahead of him.

[Michael Davis]

Bernie,

Just one point. I think painting the Mariners Japanese ownership issue as racist is a distortion of the facts. It had more to do with the problems of foreign ownership of a team.

Mike

[bernie]

i dont think they made that big a deal about canadians owning a team when they got their franchises...in fact, they gave them 2 teams. it wasnt about just foreign ownership...

MLB tried alot to keep the japanese from ownership. it was all over in the papers here. and it was crap.

but the main point was holding rose to a higher standard than MLB itself. which is a joke. MLB is F'ed up, big time. and there are no signs of changing...

b

[marbles]

"A long time ago I read a Playboy interview of Rose (yeah, I used to read Playboy for the interview)."

-Off the topic, but the best interview I've ever read was Playboy with Bob Knight a couple of years back. They actually have some really solid interviewers there.

[B-Man]

Pete Rose is a lowlife and a degenerate gambler. He knew exactly what the rules (and punishments) were for gambling on baseball, and he did it anyway. Pete Rose is not a victim. He knowingly and repeatedly broke the rules, then he voluntarily agreed to the maximum penalty (does anyone really think he would have signed that agreement if he wasn't guilty?). None of the 14 players who were ever given a lifetime ban from baseball were reinstated, and I certainly don't think they should start with Pete Rose.

[bernie]

"None of the 14 players who were ever given a lifetime ban from baseball were reinstated,"

this must be for the hall, but not playing. since steve howe had what? 4+ lifetime bans, and daryl strawberry has a few...

but they were let back in to play

[B-Man]

Sorry, I should have written that none of the 14 players who were ever given a lifetime ban for gambling were ever reinstated.

[Andy B]

I don't think that any of the various drug offenders were ever given a lifetime ban. I could be wrong on that. Maybe Howe was.

None of the other guys who were banned for gambling ever signed an agreement saying that there was no finding of guilt, and that there was nothing to prevent them from applying for reinstatement.

[B-Man]

None of the other guys who were banned for gambling ever signed an agreement saying that there was no finding of guilt...

Not to split hairs, but the agreement does not say that. On the contrary, it says, "4. Peter Edward Rose acknowledges that the Commissioner has a factual basis to impose the penalty provided herein"

[IrishHand]

Also, as you alluded to, the agreement is little more than a plea bargain. At the time, Rose was looking at being completely disgraced in the eyes of the American public and he cut the best deal he could - the best deal being a lifetime ban.

The only reason an accused accepts a life sentence is because he thinks he's about to get the death penalty.

In the minds of MLB at the time, Rose was dealt with in a compassionate and compromising manner befitting one who had accomplished so much in his playing career. If it had been up to me, the man would have been made an example of. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Irish

[bernie]

"I don't think that any of the various drug offenders were ever given a lifetime ban. I could be wrong on that. Maybe Howe was."

yes, they were. howe has at least 4, but i think it's more, and strawberry has at least one. yet they kept coming back into the league.