5 bets on the flop, what do you put him on?

[davidross]

Live 10/20 game. I am in the SB with As Ah. A late position player who is usually very aggressive limps in. The BB will defend anything and I raise. They both call.

Flop Ac Ts 7c.

I debate slow playing but decide to bet. BB folds but the LP raises me. Again I think about smooth calling, but because of my position I think I have to bet the turn anyway, so I 3 bet him. He 4 bets. Because we are heads up we can go as high as we want. With the absolute nuts for now, I 5 bet. Finally he just calls.

Turn [Ac Ts 7c] 3d.

I bet and he calls.

River [Ac Ts 7c 3d] 5c.

/forums/images/icons/frown.gif .

What do you put him on and do you bet the river?

[davidross]

I thought for a minute and decided he wasn't on a flush draw. I put him on a smaller set or AT and decided he would call my river bet.

He raised me and I made a crying call. he had Qc 8c.

When he made it 4 bets on the flop heads up I figured he wasn't pumping a flush. Oops.

[Ulysses]

I bet the river. In your position I'd put him on TT most likely, however, since you posted this, I'll go with 8c9c.

[J.A.Sucker]

When most people pound the pot on the flop in a preflop steal type of situation one of the following is the case (in order of likeliehood, IMO):

1. Big draw
2. Pair, good draw
3. Top pair, good kicker (though many wait for the turn)
4. 2-pair/set (not likely, since people wait for the turn, also)

Since you have AA, it's very unlikely that he has top pair. Also, since the A is suited on the board, he can't have overcard/flush draw hands (group this in #1). Plus, he didn't raise first in here from LP on a steal, and you say he's aggressive.

I think he's gonna show you a hand like 8c9c or some other nice flush draw, possibly with str8 draws, too. Every time.

Still, betting the river is probably still right, since you have top set, and maybe you don't want to be known as a passive player (though I think that this is a great image to have). Obviously, call a raise when he pops it.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

What could he have that he didn't reraise with pre-flop. I don't think he goes to 5 bets on a draw, so I'll say 77.

I say bet out and call a raise.

[mikelow]

I would have put him on a set also, but 9 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/club.gif is a
possibility also. I'm a river bettor also, but it's close.

I would like to play against this opponent in the long run, if he likes going to war with Q /forums/images/icons/club.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/club.gif .

[skp]

Hell, I am all for river value betting and would probably bet the AA here. But on reflection, this is a spot to perhaps check. This is partly because if he has TT, he will probably bet it for you after you check. I mean, one of the reasons given for betting AA is to not appear wimpy just because the flush card got here. By the same token, the guy with TT would feel compelled to bet even though the flush card got there given that you have checked the river.

[Dynasty]

Agreed. Checking and calling looks best here since his flop play narrows down his hands to a set or a big draw. You should get your 1 bet out of him on the river if he has a set by the check and call.

In addition the 9c8c people have already suggested, it's also possible he has KcQc, KcJc, QcJc or Tcxc even though you would expect him to raise with the first frew hands.

[Ulysses]

When I posted I thought the river bet was close, but thought I'd probably fire it out. After reading your post, though, since a 77 or TT who is that aggressive on the flop will most likely bet the river if you check, checking the river seems smarter. It also avoids having that nasty raise staring at you.

[deadbart]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
even though you would expect him to raise with the first frew hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, you would expect an aggressive player in late position to raise TT and 77 too.

[brad]

you may have overthought this which is what i do all the time.

basically, someone who goes to war on the flop then just calls on the turn is on a draw, perhaps a str/flush draw or flush draw +3 str +pair or something, or perhaps just very aggressively trying for a free (sic) card.

also he could be playing top pair this way but in this situation theres too many factors against it.

i also like the posters who said that a hand that would pay u off would bet the river for you (although if somehow you are against a goofy played AK he might check behind thinking you made the flush but not always)

[glen]

He didn't go 5 bets on a draw, he four-bet and davidross put in the fifth bet. Isn't it true, though, that the betting can't be unlimited raises as long as there was another player in the hand at the start of the betting round? So, if the cap were four-bets, no fifth bet should have been allowed in the first place.

[eldo77]

3 Tens. Bet again.He knows you have 3 Aces by now but he has to call anyway.

[davidross]

I learned that rule the last time I played there (Brantford Charity Casino). As soon as there are only 2 people left, even in the middle of a betting round it becomes unlimited.

[glen]

That seems odd, though, to rule it that way. Since one of the reasons for having a cap is to prevent collusion, I could imagine a player five-betting, then the four bettor saying, "My bottom set is no good," and folding. . . I like the no-cap only when the betting round starts more.

[Rick Nebiolo]

glen,

rules vary but i'll describe the los angeles way.

if the third party player folds before a cap is reached then there is no cap.

OTOH, had the third party been active when the capping raise was put in (in los angeles the cap is three raises), then the betting is capped even if the third party now folds.

in this case the third party player folded before there were three raises so there is no cap.

regards,

rick

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi David:

It doesn't matter what he has, you should check. The reason for this is that if he has a flush, you save money, and if he has a hand like AT or a smaller set, he should bet it anyway. Also, if he was out of line, he might make a desperation bluff. So if you check the money should still go in, and you should save money those times he does have you beat.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

If he has TT as you suspect, won't he bet his set if you check?

MM

[Mason Malmuth]

since his flop play narrows down his hands to a set or a big draw

I think this hits the nail on the head.

MM

[Ulysses]

Yeah, that became glaringly obvious to me as soon as someone else posted it! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[cpk]

The only thing that made sense to me as I read your post was 8c9c. He thinks you merely have top pair, so he thinks he's ahead of you on the flop.

I think you have to put him on that. If I had 8c9c, I might have taken it as high as 6 bets, because I'm not likely to put you on AA, and I am ahead of AK or anything similar. And I'm only 3:2 behind AA or another set.

But this is a maniac--still, I think you have to put him on the club draw and check-call the river. You might draw a bluff if he has nothing.

[StoneAge]

Haven't looked at the other (many) responses yet. In the last two months, I have been involved with three capped pots on the flop, all of them I have held the underset, all 10-20, so my first inclination is TT. It does seem very possible that he has a suited K,Q,or J with the 10 /forums/images/icons/club.gif and is looking for a free card with his second raise plus now with you putting in 5 bets he knows that hitting his kicker or T is no good because you almost certainly have AA. In the heat of the hand I would have put him on TT and fired a bet on the river, but now it seems more likely (if he is a very agressive player) that he has clubs so check and call the river

[Rick Nebiolo]

david,

i believe the los angeles (and I believe las vegas) way described below is most refined (it was designed by Bob Ciaffone). Essentially, the pot is capped and stays capped as long as the cap is reached when three players are active, even if one player subsequently folds.

regards,

rick

[Ulysses]

Rick,

So (with a 5-bet cap):

Player A 4-bets. Player B caps. Player C folds. At this point, with the rules you described, Player A can't 6-bet here, correct?

Where I play, even in this scenario, it becomes unlimited raises between Player A and B when C folds.

[RollaJ]

Amazingly I had the same situation this weekend, SB A-A flop a set and this piece of crap drew out on me runner runner. It sucked hard but you have to bet the river, with all that raising how do you put him on a draw??? /forums/images/icons/frown.gif