QQ vs 3 opponents

[Duerig]

Alright people to respond to this post. This is a pretty standard hand (I think) but I'm sure I misplayed it. Both opponents were ~30% VPIP, were a bit too loose pf but I haven't seen either do anything extremely stupid yet.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

River: (8.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

I have an idea of what I think I should have done, but I'll wait until some people reply. Thoughts?

[topspin]

The only question here is whether to bet/fold or check/call the river. Bet/fold is the default OOP in these sorts of situations and HU it's standard here, but against 2 callers I really can't see many worse hands calling on this board so I actually like the check/call. Might be overly weak though so I'll at least bump your thread for other comments.

[NateDog]

I'd c/c one back. I run into these a lot myself, and find MHIG more than I expect.

[Firefly]

I actually like the way you played it, but the river decision is pretty close. Can you fold to a raise?

More that I think about it, bet/fold the river, anything that raises the river has you beat.

[cmwck]

If a bet's going in on this river, I'd rather bet/fold than check/call.

[Maurader1]

if CO or UTG+1 raised on the flop, do you still bet the turn?

Also I don't understand why there is a preference to bet/fold over check/call. Sure it might get checked through and we lose at most 2BB if our hand is good, but if we fold to the raise, we saying that we are over 90% certain we are beat, and giving up 9BB. Does the EV math over the long run justify the bet/fold line?

Since we are putting in one bet on the river anyways, wouldn't it be best to use that bet to see a showdown instead of trying to extract one more bet from hands that we beat?

[kapw7]

Why on earth would you bet this river? Are you the favourite to have the best hand? Not at all. Do you expect any worse hands than yours to call? Not really (a pair of jacks maybe?) Do you expect better hands than yours i.e. pair of aces to fold? No. Does your position suck? Yes.

[Losfer]

[ QUOTE ]
If a bet's going in on this river, I'd rather bet/fold than check/call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would really appreciate an explination on this. It seems either way you are putting in one more bet, and it seems doubtful that you would get called by a worse hand. I also think you could save a bet if you check and it gets bet and then raised behind you. No?

[Duerig]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you fold to a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell yes. In fact my thinking was that I should have given up on this hand earlier than I did. I think the river call was pretty bad, and possibly even the the turn bet. I tend to be way too tight though.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you expect any worse hands than yours to call? Not really (a pair of jacks maybe?)

[/ QUOTE ]

A 5, a 2, a T, a J, a lower pocket pair.

[Fantam]

I agree with your reasoning in this hand Losfer.

I think the reasoning with the bet/fold line is so as not to give players with worse hands a free show down.

However, I agree that the OP's hand is not strong enough to do that in this instance.

[Losfer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you expect any worse hands than yours to call? Not really (a pair of jacks maybe?)

[/ QUOTE ]

A 5, a 2, a T, a J, a lower pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused....don't those aces beat QQ?

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you expect any worse hands than yours to call? Not really (a pair of jacks maybe?)

[/ QUOTE ]

A 5, a 2, a T, a J, a lower pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

HU, perhaps, but 3 way, i don't think both have worse hands.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you expect any worse hands than yours to call? Not really (a pair of jacks maybe?)

[/ QUOTE ]

A 5, a 2, a T, a J, a lower pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused....don't those aces beat QQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not saying Ace 5, he is saying A 5. as in ABC...

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Losfer]

I know you agreed with me, but I would appreciate more discussion about this concept:

[ QUOTE ]
I think the reasoning with the bet/fold line is so as not to give players with worse hands a free show down.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's not just about not giving a free showdown to a hand that you beat. It's not giving a free showdown to a hand that you beat and would call another bet. I think this is a weakness for me (I check to often). Can anyone enlighten me about which worse hands will call here?

thanks,
Losfer

[Losfer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


A 5, a 2, a T, a J, a lower pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused....don't those aces beat QQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not saying Ace 5, he is saying A 5. as in ABC...

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm dumb.

Thanks.

[Wetdog]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually like the way you played it, but the river decision is pretty close. Can you fold to a raise?

More that I think about it, bet/fold the river, anything that raises the river has you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily, and check call at least gives you a chance at winning for the same 1 bet.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Not necessarily, and check call at least gives you a chance at winning for the same 1 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that if you get a bet via check/call, you're more likely to lose than getting a bet via bet/fold.

[Wetdog]

How is calling more likely to lose than folding? I haven't picked up any pots after I folded.

OK, excuse the smart-assism. I do appreciate your comment.Is it as likely that a .50 1 player will have you beat if he bets than a 3-6 player? I think that pups and kitties are being mutilated everywhere if a 13 bet pot is folded to for 1 bet.

edit: Specific to this hand, it's possible that CO has a flush. It's also possible that he has jacks. A check may induce a bluff or bet on a smaller pair. Same 1 bet, better outcome than a fold.

[@bsolute_luck]

my thought: by checking, you haven't faced the Ace the pressure to fold. you'll be raised by a flush, but i doubt an Ace.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
How is calling more likely to lose than folding? I haven't picked up any pots after I folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that if you check, worse hands are not likely to bet unless you have a specific read. Let's say someone has like a pair of 5's here. If you bet, he will probably call. If you check, he will probably not bet thus you lose a value bet opportunity.

[Wetdog]

Very well put, Dave. Thanx.

edit: I guess one of my leaks is that I just can't lay it down on the river for 1 bet, so I make sure that I just 1 bet the river.

[ToGreyStreet]

[ QUOTE ]
If a bet's going in on this river, I'd rather bet/fold than check/call.

[/ QUOTE ]

[diebitter]

er, why are they called '3 opponents' if there's only 2 of em?

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
How is calling more likely to lose than folding? I haven't picked up any pots after I folded.

OK, excuse the smart-assism. I do appreciate your comment.Is it as likely that a .50 1 player will have you beat if he bets than a 3-6 player? I think that pups and kitties are being mutilated everywhere if a 13 bet pot is folded to for 1 bet.

edit: Specific to this hand, it's possible that CO has a flush. It's also possible that he has jacks. A check may induce a bluff or bet on a smaller pair. Same 1 bet, better outcome than a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking enables worse hands to check behind you while better hands will bet. Thus by check calling you lose out both ways, you gain nothing from the worse hands and you pay off the better hands. Betting makes the worse hands pay you off while you can comfortably fold to a raise from a better hand.
Also, on this hand you don't want overcalls as your hand probably won't stand up to them. A check might induce a bluff against one player but not two. UTG+1 overcalled, so he has to have something, (perhaps a weak Ace).
Actually looking at this hand I like check raising the river the best. You knock out UTG+1 and get it heads up thus improving your chances to win. You don't want him overcalling this pot. A bad raise with a strong hand may cost you a few overcalls. A sloppy call with a weak hand could cost you the pot.

[Redd]

I think it's close between bet-fold and check-fold, based on how strong your 'not stupid' read is. If both of these guys were solid I'd seriously consider c/fing. If they were pretty loose post-flop too, I'd bet-fold it. Against most party players, I would bet-fold.