is this collusion/cheating?

[kirisim]

At the Taj this last weekend I was playing in a super satellite. Frist prize was a seat into the $7500 tourney, second prize was $6400 cash. No third prize. (So we are talking serious money here.) Anyway, we were down to 3 players. I was short stack and had T8000. THey both had about T30000. Blinds were 1K/2K. So first hand, I'm SB, big stack 1 is BB. Big stack 2 with the button looks at his hand and says "all in." I have rags, so I fold. Big stack 1 folds his BB.

Next hand I am the button with a rag king, I go all in. They both fold.

Then I am BB for 2K. They both fold.

Then I am SB for 1K. Big stack 2 on the button looks at cards and says all in. I have rags, I fold. So does big stack 1.

So you see what is happening. Big stack 2 knows that big stack 1 won't call the allin! How else can he go all in unless he knows he is only playing against me? Otherwise he would only have to raise whatever chips I have - say 8K ! Why raise 30K when you only need to raise 8K?????

So I busted out soon afterward and left in disgust... as I was storming away I heard something to effect of, "Whew... okay Bob, what do you want to do??"

What the hell was going on here. Should I have said something if I suspected them of softplaying.

[ohkanada]

I don't see any explicit collusion or cheating going on.

They seem to be both staying away from the other big stack. With the stack sizes they see no advantage of taking chips from each other since you are the only thing stopping them from the money. If they raise to 8k, then the other big stack might re-raise all-in or call and then both are at risk. If they raise to 30k, the other would likely fold everything except AA.

Once you are eliminated they naturally discuss either splitting the money or do something to get the super finished.

Ken Poklitar

[kirisim]

Ken,

How come you are the only one ever to answer my posts?

My point was, why is one of the big stacks risking the other big stack waking up with AA? I mean, if he raises to 10K, the other big stack shouldn't call with anything besides AA either, according simple tournament strategy!

[shaniac]

kirisim

It is some kind of collusion but one that makes sense for them according to the dictates of tournament strategy and is not really suspect. You were just in a bad spot and I don't think you were cheated.

You should have tried to convince them to a saver at the point you were 3-handed since the two big stacks had the most to lose. Otherwise your only hoping of leaving that table not feeling frustated would have been to double up a few times until you have a threatening stack and then some obvious negotiating power.

just my 2 cents,
shaniac

[ohkanada]

If the initial raiser is sure the other big stack will only call the raise with AA then he can certainly raise all-in with any Ace since it is quite unlikely to be up against AA when you have an ace. Even without an Ace it is still unlikely but certainly possible.

Although now that I am thinking more about it, this may well be that rare situation where it makes sense for the second big stack to fold AA. The closer the top 2 prizes are to each other the more correct it would be to fold AA.

Hopefully a few others pipe in on this thread.

Ken Poklitar

[Greg (FossilMan)]

It sounds like they were playing correctly to me.

If I'm either one of them, I need to avoid the other big stack, and focus on you. That means once one of the big stack comes in, the other should get out. This should balance out for them, since whenever one of them is the button, he is first to act, and can raise out the other. However, they shouldn't raise with just any hand, because you're going to have to call with a significant fraction of your hands, and they don't want to give you an easy double-up when they're holding garbage cards.

The one guy either got good cards on his button, or he was being overly aggressive on his button. The other guy might have been playing slightly too passively.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[sdplayerb]

I agree. I would seriously have to consider folding AA.
There is no difference between 1st and 2nd and a huge one between 2nd and 3rd.
They basically have 2nd locked up. So if they have say an 80% chance of winning the hand, why risk it as they have a better than 80% chance to take 2nd under the current situation.

SD

[Big Ben 33]

Their play was standard, and not collusion IMO. With both players at T30000, and you at a pesky T8000, you should attempt to negotiate a saver next time you're in that spot. You still have enough chips to be a huge pain to their plans in that spot, big-time. Better luck.

[kirisim]

I understand all your arguments. I think what they were doing was just standard satellite tournament strategy. I just don't see why they would raise allin when I only have 8K! If I was one of the big stacks I probably would have raised every hand to 8K.

It didn't even occur to me to suggest a save because I really wanted the $6400 for second. In retrospect, I guess I could have said "Give me $1000 and I'll go home." They might have agreed to that.

What wound up happening is that I shoved it in with K-8 suited and got called by K-4, and he won. What can you do? I would have called if I were him.

THe interesting thing about this satellite was this. Very early on, when everyone had T1000 in chips, I made a raise of about T200 with 88 and got called in several places. The flop was 9 5 x. I shoved it allin, and got called by A-9 (top pair) and TT (overpair.) Turn and river were 6 7 giving me a straight and over 3K in chips! I ran the simulation and I win that pot about 10% of the time. Well, from that point on, I never saw a single flop the whole tournament! I either raised and stole the blinds or was allin before the flop and won. I thought I played an excellent tournament. I wasn't taking any chances. It got me to 3rd, but in the end, I was trapped between two monsters stacks. And 3rd wasn't worth anything.