Range

[Jason Strasser]

***** Hand History for Game 2105010638 *****
NL Hold'em $1000 Buy-in + $65 Entry Fee Trny:12523931 Level:6 Blinds(150/300) - Wednesday, May 25, 19:09:32 EDT 2005
Table Step 5 #983602 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: goodLgirl ( $1395 )
Seat 2: lastbuyin101 ( $1310 )
Seat 4: strassa2 ( $1715 )
Seat 5: pbdrunks ( $940 )
Seat 8: TKLawyer ( $1740 )
Seat 10: smdrive1111 ( $2900 )
Trny:12523931 Level:6
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to strassa2 [ XX]
smdrive1111 folds.
goodLgirl: alwatt 3 pouter
goodLgirl folds.
lastbuyin101 is all-In [1310]


Standard 1k step 5, top 4 payout. What range of hands do you call with here? Opponent is a good and aggressive winner.

[Nick B.]

I would probably go AQ+, 99+.

[J-Lo]

JJ+, AK.... nothing less, although, he is pushing into the blinds of short stack, and guy who gets crippled if called. I see this as one of those last chance desperat pushed, because if he loses 450 more, he's down to 3x BB. I MIGHT loosen up to TT+, AK. (i'm a 55 player)

edit: changed some syntax

[AA suited]

if he's good and aggressive, then he might push with any 2 in the co, especially if you, sb, and bb have been weak tight throughout the tourny.

it wont look like a blind steal, so the sb shortstack will be less tempted to call questionable hands.

I would call with top 15% (any pair, a8o+, a4s+, kts-kqs).

Wrong???

[Bigwig]

Without any read, I'd go with AJ+, 99+. If I had a good feel for the player, it might drop to AT & 77. I think you have to be fairly liberal here, as the CO's pushing range should be very large, given that their fold equity will be severely damaged in the next orbit.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
if he's good and aggressive, then he might push with any 2 in the co, especially if you, sb, and bb have been weak tight throughout the tourny.

it wont look like a blind steal, so the sb shortstack will be less tempted to call questionable hands.

I would call with top 15% (any pair, a8o+, a4s+, kts-kqs).

Wrong???

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, I think that's too many hands. Don't forget, you still have two players to act behind you, and putting the CO on any 2 is a bit much, I believe.

[Voltron87]

I spite call here.

Actually, I have no idea about step 5s. I'd probably call with AQ TT+.

[MSUcougar]

[ QUOTE ]
If I had a good feel for the player, it might drop to AT & 77.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm going with this range... I think some of the other ranges mentioned in this thread are a little tight, and conversely I'm not gonna go crazy and start calling with KJo, etc.

[curtains]

Im playin a bunch of games now, but before I even start to get into this, realize that against most normal calling ranges, its almost surely +EV for cutoff to push here with any 2 or at least close to it, which means we should call with a hell of a lot of hands.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
its almost surely +EV for cutoff to push here with any 2 or at least close to it

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course. Since when do we give the average opponent credit for knowing such a thing?

[curtains]

This is a step 5, and OP already said he was a strong player.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
OP already said he was a strong player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see.

I missed that.

How bout this: shaddup, curtains. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[curtains]

Bascially if you start folding hands like A7s you are letting players automatically exploit you by just pushing with any 2 in the cutoff there. When you are playing the toughest sit and go's online, I don't think you can allow that. There is almost no pushing range from a good player in that seat that will make calling w A7s -EV. At least thats my gut instinct right now.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Bascially if you start folding hands like A7s you are letting players automatically exploit you by just pushing with any 2 in the cutoff there. When you are playing the toughest sit and go's online, I don't think you can allow that. There is almost no pushing range from a good player in that seat that will make calling w A7s -EV. At least thats my gut instinct right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

What pp's then? Down to 33, I would assume, if you'd call with A7s.

What about KQ? Include that as well?

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
its almost surely +EV for cutoff to push here with any 2 or at least close to it

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course. Since when do we give the average opponent credit for knowing such a thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a STEP 5, and villian is an aggressive and winning player.

I think the call range should be pretty large especially since at this point in the tourney it is a great spot to gamble given the payout structure of these things.

[curtains]

KQ should be a very easy call. 33 much less easy....

[curtains]

btw I'm pretty sure you should play hands worse than A7s also, that was just a quick off the cuff example.

[Nick B.]

Actually now that I think of it, my range would be a lot higher. I thought the blinds were lower. I would call 55+ and AT+

[Madd]

With OP in the BB (having already 300 invested) I'd agree with you, however, he seems to be on the button. I'd call/push with AT+ and 88+.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
With OP in the BB (having already 300 invested) I'd agree with you, however, he seems to be on the button. I'd call/push with AT+ and 88+.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost surely too tight.

[wiggs73]

A7+, 88+, KJ+.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
JJ+, AK.... nothing less, although, he is pushing into the blinds of short stack, and guy who gets crippled if called. I see this as one of those last chance desperat pushed, because if he loses 450 more, he's down to 3x BB. I MIGHT loosen up to TT+, AK. (i'm a 55 player)

[/ QUOTE ]

Citing something I credit Raptor with: Why call when I can just fold and push the next hand?

I think calling with AT-, 77-, KQ- is horrible. AJ-AQ and 88-TT are borderline.

[microbet]

KJ+, A6+, 55+ or so

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
JJ+, AK.... nothing less, although, he is pushing into the blinds of short stack, and guy who gets crippled if called. I see this as one of those last chance desperat pushed, because if he loses 450 more, he's down to 3x BB. I MIGHT loosen up to TT+, AK. (i'm a 55 player)

[/ QUOTE ]

Citing something I credit Raptor with: Why call when I can just fold and push the next hand?

I think calling with AT-, 77-, KQ- is horrible. AJ-AQ and 88-TT are borderline.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why push the next hand when I can double up this hand?

[BDarch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
JJ+, AK.... nothing less, although, he is pushing into the blinds of short stack, and guy who gets crippled if called. I see this as one of those last chance desperat pushed, because if he loses 450 more, he's down to 3x BB. I MIGHT loosen up to TT+, AK. (i'm a 55 player)

[/ QUOTE ]

Raptor was talking about playing in tournaments where the others don't push enough and have too tight calling standards. In the average step 5 people are much more aware of when to push and what they should be calling with so your typical edge on the bubble is reduced. At least I think I never actually played a step 5.

Citing something I credit Raptor with: Why call when I can just fold and push the next hand?

I think calling with AT-, 77-, KQ- is horrible. AJ-AQ and 88-TT are borderline.

[/ QUOTE ]

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
JJ+, AK.... nothing less, although, he is pushing into the blinds of short stack, and guy who gets crippled if called. I see this as one of those last chance desperat pushed, because if he loses 450 more, he's down to 3x BB. I MIGHT loosen up to TT+, AK. (i'm a 55 player)

[/ QUOTE ]

Citing something I credit Raptor with: Why call when I can just fold and push the next hand?

I think calling with AT-, 77-, KQ- is horrible. AJ-AQ and 88-TT are borderline.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you are not playing with children who will fold all but the best hands to your raise.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Why push the next hand when I can double up this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why bust 40% of the time when I can ITM more than that?

Note this hand range has a lot to do with the fact that the BB is almost obligated to call b/c of stack size.

[Voltron87]

I think my post is a pretty accurate position of what I would actually call with, not that I would play optimally.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I think my post is a pretty accurate position of what I would actually call with, not that I would play optimally.

[/ QUOTE ]

If a "good" player, is playing as tightly as you, then you will be abused in brutal fashion by your opponents just moving allin with any 2 cards.

The EV the cutoff is gaining by pushing into people with calling ranges that are too strict should be remarkably large.

[Voltron87]

i know that. i don't regularly play at levels where everyone abuses me like that. when i know someone is pushing any two, i adjust accordingly, but at the 22s 90% of the time they have a good hand (relative to any 2) and my FE is greater than any edge here, since they don't know I'm pushing any 2.


so yes, i know if my opponents are pushing any 2 i have to adjust, i just don't play at levels where that is common. i did not put an overwhelming amount of thought into my post. spite call!

[Jason Strasser]

Well just to spur things along if he shows you K2 is it correct to call?

[curtains]

Call with what? A7s?

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
Well just to spur things along if he shows you K2 is it correct to call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends what your hand is /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

With any hand that is a favourite PF over K2, it is correct to push.

[Jason Strasser]

Uhh
duh

I was thinking about what i actually had... LOL.

Say something like ATs /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
Uhh
duh

I was thinking about what i actually had... LOL.

Say something like ATs /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

yes it is very correct to gamble here knowing what your opponent has. Sorry about the beat (I assume)

[durron597]

Now that I think about it some more I didn't factor in table texture enough. Against passive opponents I fold ATs. Against active opponents it is a clear call.

I guess in a Step 5 the opponents will be active /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Uhh
duh

I was thinking about what i actually had... LOL.

Say something like ATs /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

yes it is very correct to gamble here knowing what your opponent has. Sorry about the beat (I assume)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's such a close call that it depends if one of your suit is dead in your opponents hand. At least I wish that was the answer.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Because you are not playing with children who will fold all but the best hands to your raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Curtains, if the players at the higher levels are "smart" enough to lower their calling standards, essentially isn't this game the same as those in the $22s where players "incorrectly" call with poor hands? Essentially, it's the same game. Right?

[citanul]

shhhhhhhhhhhhhh... don't let out the secret.

citanul

[microbet]

A player who doesn't understand tournament theory is going to be too loose in the begining and too tight at the end. At some point they will be just right.

[citanul]

a player who understands all his opponents are going to be playing too tight early plays more loosely early to take advantage of them.

citanul

[The Yugoslavian]

Close to the top 10% of hands I guess....something like 88+,AT+.

On some tables if he's good and agressive enough he will push any two here (like maybe......strassa2? /images/graemlins/grin.gif). Then you can make all sorts of crazy calls if you'd like /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Yugoslav

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
Well just to spur things along if he shows you K2 is it correct to call?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you knew this you could call with the top 30% of hands or so.

Yugoslav

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
Uhh
duh

I was thinking about what i actually had... LOL.

Say something like ATs /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, what? You're not saying that you have ATs and know he has K2o are you??.....that's like a ridiculously easy call....bah, now I'm confused.

If, instead, you know he has ATs then your range must be fairly tight....top 5%ish. K2o isn't in that range...but now I'm just confused about the whole thing.

I agree with curtains that vs. an optimal player you need to have a wide calling range here. Wider than what I initially thought. However, I have zero experience in the STEP 5s.

Even if villian is capable of pushing with any or almost any two then you can call with most pps, most aces, many kings, and broadways.

Yeah. How about that?

Yugoslav

[durron597]

What edge do you need to have against his range of hands to call? 65? 60%? 55%? 51%? 50.0001%? 49%?

I think worrying about what you should do against his specific two cards really doesn't matter, it's basically a bad beat post in disguise. SnGs are winner take all, so it doesn't matter if you skip a +EV move to reduce variance - depending on your certainty that you can produce chips before the blinds eat your stack.

Thus, the two most important factors here are - win % against range of hands, and table passivity. We still don't have any word on the second factor here.

[durron597]

Against the range of hands: 22+, any A, any K, Q7+, J9+, T9s, 98s, 87s

The cutoff hands if you want to have at least a
60% chance of winning:
ATs+
AJo+
88+

55% chance of winning:
A8s+ (A7s is very close at 54.3%)
A9o+
66+
KQs (KQo is very close at 54.5%)

--------------------------------------------

I really think it's correct to fold a worse than 55% edge here. My original post was working from a 60% number in the back of my brain, but I guess I was too tight.

ATs is definitely correct, though, if you think he will push with K2o.

[shejk]

[ QUOTE ]
Against the range of hands: 22+, any A, any K, Q7+, J9+, T9s, 98s, 87s

The cutoff hands if you want to have at least a
60% chance of winning:
ATs+
AJo+
88+

55% chance of winning:
A8s+ (A7s is very close at 54.3%)
A9o+
66+
KQs (KQo is very close at 54.5%)

--------------------------------------------

I really think it's correct to fold a worse than 55% edge here. My original post was working from a 60% number in the back of my brain, but I guess I was too tight.

ATs is definitely correct, though, if you think he will push with K2o.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, there is 450 paid in blinds from sb and bb. They'll fold everything but premium holdings I assume, after a push and a call. So for a 55% edge you'd need a bit less than 55% over the pushers pushing range.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably go AQ+, 99+.

[/ QUOTE ]

about what i thought, though i said TT+

k, i can't read. I thought guy with 1700 or so pushed. Widen this range up a bit.

[Jason Strasser]

Dont give me this sassy stuff /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I folded AT btw but it didnt feel good.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Dont give me this sassy stuff /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I folded AT btw but it didnt feel good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything's the same...do you call if he's button and you're SB?

[Jason Strasser]

Durron,

Im not really sure what kind of edge I need. I only posed the AT vs K2 thing because I felt bad after my fold. Table was playing pretty standard for the 1ks, which is generally tight with a few loose spots.

-Jason

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Durron,

Im not really sure what kind of edge I need. I only posed the AT vs K2 thing because I felt bad after my fold. Table was playing pretty standard for the 1ks, which is generally tight with a few loose spots.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

What range of hands do you put him on, though?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
Dont give me this sassy stuff /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I folded AT btw but it didnt feel good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you can call with AT here and feel very good about it from what people are saying about the texture of a STEP 5 (how 'good' the good players are).

In fact, it's probably a clear call unless you have a very strong read that your opponent is open pushing with a range that is way too tight.

Yugoslav

[Jason Strasser]

Likely any 2.

But the fact that I was having pretty good success stealing led me to fold. I want the hand back...

[nWirb]

I'd probably think and then fold, but I think this might be incorrect for the following reasons:

1. You are 64.602% vs any 2.
2. The pot is offering you a big overlay.
3. You have hom covered.
4. Since this is step5 and you are repeatedly playing the same players, making calls like this might discourage the regulars to steal your blinds with any 2 in the future (not that you are in the blinds here, but anyway, this call might labe you as a somewhat loose caller, which might be good).