Should I quit? Seriously....

[MrGrob]

I have been playing for >1 year now, and after talking many early loses etc, I am down just over 1000$. Lately, I have been playing better, but not having nearly as much fun. I have been cracked by crap cards over and over the last few months, and am not really down that much, but feel I have been wasting my time. Let me explain....

I play really low limit online. Some of you have probably played with me before (I have the same name at all sites). I am quite tied of taking much time to run up a nice roll, and then lose it in one or two bad sessions...is this how poker is? Do you really toile for hours and hours to build a nice win only to lose it to "the statistical adjustment in one tenth the time??? If so, Poker sucks /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

Looking back, I may be down 1000, but it was over a year of playing and probably 5000 hours at least (this is .20 cents an hour). This hobby really is not that expensive, but seeing as I spend many many hours at work in front of a PC, and then have to send even more playing, I think I am paying for my own death... /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

A card room has opened in my city recently, but they seem to only play 4/8 Hold'em. I think that I can get a roll together for this, and I believe I will be able to play better even in real life, as I can read people and hands very very well (something I feel I am missing online), but can you keep your game in good shape playing on a day or two out of the week?

I love poker, but mainly with real people -- and even then I am not enjoying it as much as I should. I guess I have just taken too many beats where some fool calls my raise with AA, gets me heads up, and catch whatever crappy cards he needs to win, be it two pair, flush, it doesn't matter. I have also had it with losing Pot & No Limit online to BS hands the same way -- no matter what I hold, I lose -- no matter how I bet, I lose -- ALWAYS heads up, ALWAYS get shafted by 2, 3, or 4 outers etc. Yea, great, this is poker, but I am starting to really see that the odds are breaking down for me. I am losing all positive situations lately it seems....

Yea, this post is probably just crying, but I have to give up a game I have invested time & money in & once enjoyed...sure I can play for days and days on 10 dollars, but building it up to 100 only to lose it in two sessions of total losers catching everything against me, is getting old.

Any advise...or can anyone figure out what I want from this game? Sure I would like to win, but I am starting to feel .50 / 1 is a waste of time, and anything higher is too much money to trust online.

Needing encouragement as you can /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

[Hotchile]

Yours is a question that we all have to ask ourselves at some point in our career. The answer is simple. You are not playing for fun. You are playing for money. This is why you are getting frustrated with the variance that is occurring.

Understand the dynamic. Nobody goes up by 1.5 BB/hr on schedule. somedays you win x BB and somedays you lose x BB. At the end of the two days, you hope to have more BB than when you started. So, if you build $10 into $100 and then slide back to $20, you are still a $10 winner. If it took 10 hours to complete this cycle, (oversimplified), then you would be a $1 per hour winner. At this point you can begin to feel secure about your game.

It sounds to me that you want to win more than $1 per hour thus the statement ".50/1.00 is a waste of time". It is, if you are trying to earn $10-$20 per hour. However, if you use it as a place to hone your skills and become a consistent winner, then it is the best/cheapest training ground.

The question you are asking is, "If I can't deal with variance, should I just quit?". That is a question only you can answer.

Write down your reasons for continuing and write down the reasons for quitting. From there you will be able to make an informed decision that you will be able to live with.

Larry

[Webster]

The lower the limit the harder it is to won large chunck of money because players are not that good and ultra low limits is nt REAL money to them.

Quit the game for a while, read and come back when you can be aggressive. You are probebly trying NOT to lose instead of trying to win.

I have huge swings (I know where my leak is) and can be up 300 BB's and then lose 1/2.

My advice is to take a break, study, and come back fresh.

[cybertilt]

seems to me that what is putting you on tilt is the suck-outs. Move up to the larger games if you can. All your going to find at the micro limits is a group of gamblers who get their kicks in sucking out on you. Get up to a level where hand reading and proper odds mean something.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

My advice is to try and address things you can control. Are you *really* getting sucked out on? Or have you gotten gun-shy and are not charging your opponents for draws. I'd say post a couple of these defeats and let's see if maybe some leaks have crept into your game.

Repeat after me - AA is a loser almost 7 out of 10 times.

The only thing more debilitating than "sticky aces syndrome" is "pocket rocket entitlement." Remember that after you've lost 3 times in a row with AA that your time will come and don't start slow-playing them out of fear. How many times have you won 2 or three consecutive hands with big pocket pairs, nice pots, and thought "Wow, I was lucky, i should have lost two of those hands." Don't let the times the probabilities bite you blind you to when they smile on you. Hell, I went most of October/November without hitting a single flush draw. Recently it seems I'm hitting more than half of them.

hang in there, but if you feel like you have to quit, take some time off and see if the fire comes back. If it does, great, if not, you gave it your best shot. Q'PlaGH

[marbles]

There are only two reasons to play poker: enjoyment and profit. If you're not getting either one, stop playing immediately.

[Vehn]

I'll give you the abridged version Vehn's How to Win at Poker(tm).

Play Paradise $.50/$1 until you know how to win. Beat it for 1bb/35hands over a decent stretch of time. Keep good records or buy a stat program. If you're not winning, read books, read this forum, post hands, identify leaks and fix them. Cash out from Paradise. Go play B&M $4/$8 or higher. As you win, and your bankroll gets larger, and you become a stronger player, step up in limits. If at any point you feel you're not enjoying playing even though you're winning, poker probably isn't the game for you. Playing winning poker involves a lot of discipline, patience, boredom, disappointment, and occasional moments of sheer terror. Its not for everyone.

p.s. I play twice a week live and do not feel my game slips at all during the off time, rather, I look forward to and enjoy playing more than when I used to play online every day, which I no longer do at all.

[bernie]

[ResidentParanoid]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Playing winning poker involves a lot of discipline, patience, boredom, disappointment, and occasional moments of sheer terror. Its not for everyone.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, absolutely.

I found that playing 0.5/1 online did a lot for tuning up my game. Playing so many hands let's you get a good feel for where your leaks are. Even though I was winning regularly at B&amp;M LL, I think spending a couple of months playing online at 0.5/1 really helped me solidify my LL play.

Playing live is much more fun. Lower limits in most B&amp;M rooms I have played in are similar to 0.5/1 online. I also found that I had to take a break from online after a while since it seemed like a grind to spend hours winning 0.05 BB a hand or so at 0.5/1. I haven't been back in a month.

To the original poster, take a break from online to let your eyes heal, but I think you have to be able to beat a loose, passive 0.5/1 game before you can move on. Find your leaks there, and use the B&amp;M play to keep you interested.

[Inthacup]

Repeat after me - AA is a loser almost 7 out of 10 times.

Don't repeat it, take it in context. Against a full table, AA wins 3 times out of 10. Heads up it wins 8.8 times out of 10. THAT is why you raise and reraise with it. It is the best starting hand, yes, and you do want to juice up the pot. But you also need to make the inferior hands pay maximum to either see the flop or draw out on you. Only find consolation in the fact that AA loses when you do all that you can, and it still loses. If your AA loses 7 out of 10 times, then blame 1 of 2 things: 1. Your bad play. 2. The 100% avg. of players seeing the flop for 2 bets.

[bernie]

if youre not having fun and are hitting a wall of frustration, take a break. just over a year in playing isnt much. but you are on a plateau level. and it's a level that many peak at. they cant handle the beats....it's a very tough hurdle to get over. it took me awhile to get over it. id like to say the grass is greener on the other side, but part of it is redirecting the frustration into more productive aspects of the game during the session. ive been sucked out on by jsut about every hand imaginable now. nothing really suprises me. and i know im getting the best of it when i lose the hand to a suckout. so im at the point to where it doesnt bother me at all. however, losing in general, over a long session can wear me down a little. but then i leave and come back another day. when you can feel it wearing you down, it's time to leave. your play will likely be affected, as ol' man tilt will be trying to check your prostrate.

you CANNOT blame the players for catching the 'perfect' cards. you WANT them to call, remember? and they will catch at times. sometimes quite a bit. think of the hands you win where you dont get to see their crap miss. sounds like your badbeat skin is kinda worn down. it happens. take a break.

pot limit and no limit is a different animal than a normal ringgame. i wouldnt play these seriuosly if i was only playing for just over a year, and am having trouble with bad beats. if you go on tilt here, you could lose alot more than just in a ring game. more money involved, more emotional effect it can have.

as far as the others draws hitting, make sure that they had only '4' outs. they may have had more. work the hand backward from the players perspective. and if they didnt, you gotta love them calling. you lost the pot, but made money on the hand. someone mentioned 'charging' draws. this only applies to where youd be cutting their odds to draw, leading them into a mistake for calling. if someone flops a strong draw, theyre seeing the river regardless. there's no way theyre laying it down. and neither would you or i. and just betting isnt stopping any cards, turn or river, from coming if they choose to chase. sometimes bad players play correctly by accident. do you always bet a flop with a decent hand, big pot from say, LP, when the hand was raised preflop? this isnt always the best spot to bet. but that's just one example. i would study the loose games section of HPFAP. and make sure you understand the reasoning behind most of it. many players stop on pg150 and then apply normal plays to loose games which doesnt maximize wins, nor minimize the losses. there are some key adjustments to these games. just as there are adjustments to other texture games or players...

one poster said to move up in limits for less suckouts. i dont agree with this, since you'll have to learn how to deal with suckouts anyway. you have to accept that it's going to happen. at ANY level. it may not happen at higher limits as much, but there are loose passive, chasing everything tables on every limit. the better you can look at your sucked out hand and understand that even though you lost, you won, the better your game will be. remember also, it is a game of GAMBLING. luck plays a big factor. some players see it like a crap table. theyre just taking a shot at another game.

what do you want from this game? only you can answer that. make a list andn be honest with yourself. money is obvious. but maybe it's the money confirming that you are beating the game. so when you lose, it's not so much the money, but the realization that you may not be as good as you think you are. (that statement was not meant as an insult, but to make you think about your game internally and honestly about why losing affects you the way it does)

whether im winning or losing a session i can tell by how the opponents are playing whether i can beat them in the long run. yet, that doesnt gaurantee me a winning session. i've been on tables where i was by far the top player....and lost. yes, it was frustrating.

welcome to poker.

but i also know i will play these players again, and eventually, the cards will turn, i will make more money on hands that they normally wont and i will save money on hands that they will pay more with.

if you really love the game, and love to play it.....

take a break, and make it a challenge to beat the game. keep in mind, beating the game means more than just beating one texture type that the table may present. there are many one trick ponies who can only play against somewhat 'decent' players because they dont know how to adjust. challenge yourself to try and beat all textures, by learning the ins and outs of the textures....

anyway....ive rambled enough....

hope this helps a little...good luck

b

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Good point. My mistake for lack of clarity.

[Homer]

You aren't enjoying the game. That is as good a reason as any to give yourself some time off. Why play if the game isn't fun to you anymore? Another option is to slow down a little and re-evaluate your game. The possibility exists that you are not a winning player if you are behind after a year of full-time play. Read some books, review some old hands, and try to determine what your weaknesses are. Look inside and really try to determine if you lost because of an incredible string of bad luck or because you are not as great a player as you thought you were. You may find that your play has been solid and you just had a bad year (this is possible, although unlikely). I think you will find that you made a lot of little mistakes along the way that added up to make you a slight loser for the year, rather than a slight winner. If you can rid yourself of these mistakes then you can become a winning player. I know what you are going through, as I found myself in a similar position a few months ago. I did a lot of self-reflection and realized that my play wasn't good enough for me to be a winning player. I read and re-read some books, and put a lot of time into trying to solidify my game. I conceded the fact that it isn't easy to be a long-term winner in this game. It takes hours of dedication and hard work. You need to consider whether you are willing to dedicate lots of time towards improving your game. You may come to the conclusion that you are satisfied with being a slight loser in the game (which is still better than the majority of the people who play), and that you are only going to play recreationally. Or you might come to the conclusion that being a winning player is something that you really aspire to be. In the end, do whatever is best for you, what makes you the happiest.

Just some thoughts...

-- Homer

[MrGrob]

...and taking the time to write it out. I think I will step back and try to find the love of the game again, as this is a great game, and also try to play live more. I am trying to get some home games going, as they are always the most fun (and give you a chance to actually touch chips and cards), and am still thinking about playing at the new room in town as well.

Thanks again for all y'alls' advise!

May the flop be with you! /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

[Fitz]

There is a lot of good advice in this thread. All I can add is that I do understand how you feel; I think any of us who have played this game for any length of time have been in a similar frame of mind. I recently went through a several hundred big bet downswing that literally had me talking to myself.

I would offer a couple of pieces of advice for you. First, get away from the game for a while. The holidays are coming; hang out with family and friends O.D. on egg nog and football, and don't give hitting a flop another thought until after New Year's. In January, or February whenever you decide to play again, relax and try to remember why you started playing in the first place, because you like the game. Also, spend some time studying and try to be honest about any possible holes in your game.

Only you can decide if you should quit the game or not. I would say take some time away and then reevaluate. Also, when you are on a more even keel, don't be afraid to jump into the 4/8 game at your local casino. Playing live and making a day of it might help reignite the fire for the game.

Good luck,