Can somebody give me some honest opinions on the SS limit forum?

[adanthar]

So, once upon a time, I used to be a limit player. I did pretty well at 3/6, broke even at 5/10 and would like to brush up on my limit skills sometime soon (it never hurts to work on all your games).

For the last week, I've been reading SS to get back into the flow. The following threads are on the first page this morning:

Hero raised JhTh on the button, made the pot big and then had to take a card off on a Qh6x4x flop, standard? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2475501&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#Post2476684)

This guy raised five people PF with black queens, hit a red Kxx flop, a bet and two calls ahead of him, two people behind him and a good chunk of the posters are advocating a raise or at least a calldown? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2466489&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

In this thread, Hero limps A9o on the button behind 3 limpers (fine), faces 2 bets cold on a 963 board, 3 bets and calls down a cap? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2466763&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1)

This is a thread from last week. Here, I asked if betting black QQ after four checks on a Kd7d5x board (edit: that was 3 bet PF and had 3 people call 2 and one CC 3) was necessarily good. The one reply to it said 'yes, because it folds 3 outers and is also for value'. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=2449078 &Forum=,,All_Forums,,&Words=&Searchpage=2&Limit=25 &Main=2447522&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=9438& daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=w&olderval=&older type=&bodyprev=1#Post2449078) Do I actually have 20% equity here?

It is *very* possible that I'm wrong. I haven't been a primarily limit player in forever and each individual decision seems mathematically right. But it feels that they are playing far too aggro and making questionable decisions on every street, as a whole. My gut feeling, if I were to go back to playing limit, is that I would be folding a lot more than this. (Each street of the JTs hand taken alone is clearly +EV. Is the hand as a whole a good one? It seems really counterintuitive. I feel like my answer would be 'if you were gonna call a bet on that board, don't raise PF.' Good? Bad? Ugly?)

I would post this there but I think I want a sanity check from the SNG crew before butting in since I don't know most of those posters now.

[syka16]

IMO the JTs hand is a call with the BDF&SD. I also think you should bet QQ on a K75 flop. But it's been a while since I've played limit so maybe I'm wrong.

[The Yugoslavian]

In Ed Miller's book he pushes a very aggressive style. The offshoot of this is a whole forum that wants to go buck wild 'protecting' their hands.

This is all out of my ass though, as I too haven't read the SS forum in quite a while.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Yugoslav

[GtrHtr]

I've been reading w/o posting on the limit boards as well as I have been working on my SS/MS limit game the past month. These guys are insane. The J10s hand on the button is playable but not after that flop.

I have adopted a very TAG approach to my limit game very similar to the early levels of an SnG. I'll attack the pot when I'm in a hand. It may not be making me the most BB per session but I've turned a very bad limit game into a profitable one which is all I was trying to do for now.

I must admit that I've learned very little on the limit forums vs what I've learned here.

My humble opinion.

[Nottom]

I've also considered taking another shot at limit soon, my stats were similar to yours. i.e. did well at 3/6, was about .5BB/100 at 5/10 (but the rakeback was awesome!)

I haven't read the SS forum in a while, but here are my thoughts.

JTs hand)
I agree with you. I think the flop call is extremely thin at best and probably just bad. I'd probably make the call with an overcard but not with 2 undercards. 13-1 is pretty good odds, but I don't think its nearly good enough (The odds of catching one of your runner-runner draws are probably close to catching a 2 outer, plus you aren't even looking at the nut flush draw, and there are some reverse implied odds involved with catching a pair.)

QQ hand)
I'd fold here too. I read throught the first through responses and all the posters I was familiar with seemed to be advocating a fold, but its kind of scary that so many are trying to see the river here.

A9o hand)
I don't like the preflop call, post flop is tough though. I might call down, I might fold. I don't think either is always correct. Given a lack of reads I'd tend to call down, but like I said I'd have already folded.

QQ hand2) I think the flop bet is fine. It helps define your hand and will usually allow you to get to the river cheaper. If you check and someone bets the turn, I don't feel good laying it down. Its an ugly hand, but I think this one is fine.

I used to pop into the micro-forum a lot when I was playing 3/6 and/or 5/10 limit and constantly saw this same sort of overaggression in the posts there, so its entirely possible that those plaers have moved up into the SS forum.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
In Ed Miller's book he pushes a very aggressive style. The offshoot of this is a whole forum that wants to go buck wild 'protecting' their hands.

This is all out of my ass though, as I too haven't read the SS forum in quite a while.

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Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is definately true in general. People read Ed's book and take it too far. They go out and turn into LAGs and then have to reel in some of that aggression before they are actually playing well.

[tech]

[ QUOTE ]
feels that they are playing far too aggro and making questionable decisions on every street

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true not just in SS but in Mid-High as well.

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
(but the rakeback was awesome!)


[/ QUOTE ]

this was on of my main reasons for going back to limit, and its a beautiful thing. Also wanted to become a better all around player.

[Al P]

Those guys are advocating pushes with any two on level 3. Gotta tone it down just a little bit.

[Voltron87]

wtf is limit poker? is it one of those dealer choice games like hollywood or something? can you play it online anywhere?

[Phil Van Sexton]

These guys are just echoing everything that Ed says, just like the people in STT who just paraphrase Strassa or Irie with every response.

Much like "push" in STT, the cool response in SS is "raise". Much like our "push" responses, they are usually right, but occasional go overboard to avoid being labelled as a "Yugo" by the rest of the board.

I didn't get a lot out of that board because pretty much everything is already covered in SSHE. With STT, we have no such bible, so we have no choice but to ask each other and get advice like "push holla".

[1C5]

How much rakeback do you make in say 2 hours vs 2 hours of SnGs of near the same level?

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
feels that they are playing far too aggro and making questionable decisions on every street

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true not just in SS but in Mid-High as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always lurked in Mid-High and I actually understand *those* plays pretty well. It's a side effect of the games they are in, because a checkraise with middle pair is actually bluffing with the best hand really often.

I just don't 'get' SS right now, though.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Much like "push" in STT, the cool response in SS is "raise". Much like our "push" responses, they are usually right, but occasional go overboard to avoid being labelled as a "Yugo" by the rest of the board.

I didn't get a lot out of that board because pretty much everything is already covered in SSHE. With STT, we have no such bible, so we have no choice but to ask each other and get advice like "push holla".

[/ QUOTE ]

sup bro

[tech]

[ QUOTE ]
I've always lurked in Mid-High and I actually understand *those* plays pretty well. It's a side effect of the games they are in, because a checkraise with middle pair is actually bluffing with the best hand really often.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. I wasn't referring to the very high stakes games. I meant more like the 15/30 games online. Some of the play/advice on those hands in mid-high is terrible.

[GtrHtr]

5-8 times as much. But then I am one of the p*%%y single table STTers.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
How much rakeback do you make in say 2 hours vs 2 hours of SnGs of near the same level?

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, if my math is right when I played 5/10 6-max I earned about $4.75/100. I averaged just under 300 hands/hour so I guess I got about $13.65/hour in rake back.

To play that game, I would say you need about a $5K BR.

Playing the 50s you prolly get about $5/hour in rake back.
If you play the 100s I guess its about $9/hour.

(All numbers are based on a 20% rakeback deal)

I currently play the 50s so it was significantly more than I get now, if I played the 100s it would be closer but still less and I would be playing on an arguably too small BR with only 50 buy-ins.

[johnnybeef]

why anyone would want to play limit holdem right now is beyond me....sngs are extremely profitable, as is omaha hilo (which has a much lower risk of ruin and a much higher attainable hourly rate).

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
why anyone would want to play limit holdem right now is beyond me....sngs are extremely profitable, as is omaha hilo (which has a much lower risk of ruin and a much higher attainable hourly rate).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing you've never played 5/10 6max.