Raising to save money

[winky51]

Ok here is something I am discovering more and more at the $100 NL tables. I want to know if my thinking is right on this one.

EXAMPLE: You have KK and make a raise the BB calls you.

Flop comes 872 rainbow. BB checks and you bet 2/3 pot. Now BB reraises you a pot sized bet. What to do?

I have come to the conclusion that in either circumstance that if you are ahead or behind reraising is your best option.

If you are ahead and he has...
A small pair (66): Well if he calls he is an underdog and you make him pay more for a 2 outer. If he folds ok you win the pot. +EV

A draw (64s) You made him pay even more to draw out on you. +EV

An overpair (TT) If he is not experienced enough he might call you down and pay you off. +EV

If you are behind and he has....

Two pair (87s) or a set (77): I think raising is the best thing you can do. Lets say the pot is $10 after you bet and he raises you your bet making the pot $20 ($5 in pot, $5 you bet, $10 he raised).

So if you call him now there is $20 and the turn he will at least bet have the pot if not more so $10-$20. Now your also faced with this call on the river of another $20-$30 probably. So your spending $30 to $50 to find out if your behind.

Isnt the right play to reraise the player on the flop right there to get better definition on what he has? Even if you raised the whole pot $20 that other player with a better hand will let you know by reraising. Maybe he might call and then you will find out on the turn when you bet. But I think in the end it will cost you less to lose. Is this a right assumption?

I did notice thought that some players you can't pull this off on. They just call you down, I have even seen a call down with the nuts. Then again there are the same players that pay you off. So then I assume your bets will be more value bets vs these types? That even if you lose you are still losing less than you should and scaring him into not raising AND if your in position you check behind the river.

I just found calling is not the way to go, I would rather reraise and lose more now then lose a lot later down the street.

[amoeba]

if he has TT to QQ, is he more likely to call your push now or call a bet later on?

you aren't folding a out set.

only time rereraising is good idea is if you think there is big chance he is on a draw.

otherwise you are way ahead or way behind and if you think you are way ahead more often, then you would want to get his stack in and reraising all in doesn't achieve that.

[winky51]

Now Im not talking about reraising all in. Im talking about reraising him.

So what would be the correct line? Call the raise then call huge bets all the way down?

Or do we have to make certain assumptions. Like maybe he has TP and doesnt think you have a big pair. In this case are we looking at him making a smaller bet on the turn?

If I was in the set position I would make the reraise and if he calls then make smaller bets than encourage him to call me down or try to see me as weak and put me all in, which then menas I bust him.

[swolfe]

this is completely wrong.

it's a huge mistake to bet/raise when you're either way ahead or way behind and your opponent has taken the lead in the betting.

(people don't semibluff check-raise with a draw, unless it's an all-in check-raise)

[winky51]

So you call down the set and pay him off?

What happens when he makes a pot size bet on the turn? Or makes a bet just big enough to make you curious because he knows you got those KKs?

Assume a normal player, not a LAG.

I dont like paying a set off. Why not reraise to find out where your at if it warrents it?

Or are we making an assumption that most of the time they won't have the set so when if you do lose it is made up by the times your ahead.

[Finite_Risk]

I would have thought the checkraised flop would have defined things...no?

If he doesn't have a set, he could be doing this with a monster draw - flush and OESD - he ain't gonna fold that if reraised by you given pot odds currently given

Plus, some of these guys will check the turn after check-raising you on the flop (happens all the time at the 50NL tables I play). I'm not so sure you end up paying more by calling since you may get a free river card if you want it

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not reraise to find out where your at if it warrents it?

[/ QUOTE ]
you made a bet, and his check-raise should tell you all you need to know. against a solid player this is an easy fold.

if this is a player that you think will check raise you with a hand that you can beat or is bluffing, then you should just call. it allows him to continue betting at you with hands that you're ahead, and saves you money against hands that beat you.

raising is pointless...if he was bluffing or he check-raised to see if his TT was good, then raising will let him get away from you. if you're behind, then he'll smooth call and trap you more or push and you'll have to fold.

[winky51]

Ahhh ok. I get the logic behind it.

Raising when behind will make them trap you for more because you just increased the size of the pot.

Raising when your ahead will make the lesser hands fold.

I guess I have been seeing people keep raising with their 2 pair or sets on the flop a lot.

I see this a lot thats why I asked this question.....
Player A Raises b4 the flop, player B calls

Flop comes, player B checks, Player A raises 2/3 pot, player B raises. Player A calls, TURN, Player B goes all in, player A calls with his AA losing to 2 pair 65s.

OR

Flop comes, player B checks, Player A raises 2/3 pot, player B raises, Player A reraises, Player B reraises.... eventually both are all in and player B cracks Player A's AA.

Seems like I see that 2nd reraise by the player B alot.

[Macquarie]

This is an interesting hand. It seems like a really good point for a tight BB player to check-raise bluff, folding out a raiser who missed the flop (and made a continuation bet) as well as potentially folding out an big overpair. In fact it seems that if the raiser thinks the BB is solid, there is no hand the raiser will call with!

How often would you guys check raise a flop like this on a pure bluff? It's a super-aggressive bluff, but a hard one to read, and seems like it is +EV.

The defense against the bluff is for the raiser to flat call, and see if the BB fires again on the turn. But it is very hard to put the BB on a bluff here..