Did I play this one right - Queens early

[NYCNative]

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t1710)
SB (t1490)
Hero (t1500)
UTG (t2140)
UTG+1 (t1500)
UTG+2 (t1460)
MP1 (t1470)
MP2 (t1370)
MP3 (t1380)
CO (t980)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls t20, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t120</font>, MP1 calls t100, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (t400) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, MP1 calls t200.

Turn: (t800) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, MP1 calls t200.

River: (t1200) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, MP1 calls t200.

Final Pot: t1600

[Unarmed]

Check the flop.

[NYCNative]

No continuation bet? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Tilt]

I would make a continuation bet like you did, but why keep firing at the turn?

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
No continuation bet? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting this flop doesn't make any sense.
If he has an ace, you're throwing money away.
If he has an underpair, you just folded out a dominated hand.
Dont worry about the draw. Its HU, the flush ace is on the board, and you may not even have the best hand.

If you must make continuation bets, do so with a whiffed AK, betting QQ here just destroys its value.

[NYCNative]

I fired again at the turn because I picked up a four-flush draw.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting this flop doesn't make any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]I disagree. It's the rest of the hand I was worried about. I almost never raise then check a flop. You lose pots right there that a continuation bet would have won.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting this flop doesn't make any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]I disagree. It's the rest of the hand I was worried about. I almost never raise then check a flop. You lose pots right there that a continuation bet would have won.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you should start doing it then. Betting this flop into 3 opponents is wrong.

edit: I noticed that the convertor screwed up. Thank god nobody previews their post.

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
I fired again at the turn because I picked up a four-flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

So because you picked up a 25% chance of winning the pot against a guy who isn't going to fold for 200 chips you bet?

If you want to semi-bluff by this point, you need a bigger raise, probably a push. Otherwise check the turn and hope he is too afraid to bet into that board with something like AT.

There is a case for betting out what you are willing to call on a chase, but I don't like it.

[NYCNative]

But the converter doesn't say I had three opponents... And I didn't. I had one.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting this flop doesn't make any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]I disagree. It's the rest of the hand I was worried about. I almost never raise then check a flop. You lose pots right there that a continuation bet would have won.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain what you are trying to accomplish by betting this flop. Also, have you ever considered that the bulk of the time your continuation bets "work" because you probably have the best hand?

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
Explain what you are trying to accomplish by betting this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]Win the pot, silly. Or find out where I am in the hand.[ QUOTE ]
Also, have you ever considered that the bulk of the time your continuation bets "work", you probably have the best hand?

[/ QUOTE ]Actually, when I make a continuatin bet, I missed and don't know where I am. Sometimes I might get villain to lay down the best hand like if the flop comes up AKx against my Queens and villain has a King.

Do you know what a "continuation bet" is?

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know what a "continuation bet" is?

[/ QUOTE ]

And with that, I am finished debating post flop play on this forum. It's a complete and utter waste of time.

[NYCNative]

Avoidance of the question noted.

[citanul]

I'm about to make a bunch of replies in this thread, because it has angered me, ok?

First off, you played this hand badly from start to finish:

Your raise size preflop was too small, for starters.

Your bet on the flop, if the pot was heads up, which I'm assuming it was, should be a "sometimes" play, and opponent/calibre of opponents dependent.

Your turn bet is bad. There's absolutely no way you can argue it isn't. What's the logic there, "I think I had about 1/4 chance to improve to a flush (which you didn't), so I bet 1/4 of the pot"? If you're going to semibluff, semibluff.

I guess you fancy that small river bet some kind of "callable river value bet" meh, it's possible. It's just unlikely it was close to the best size for that bet.

Secondarilly,

You didn't give us any reads or buyin information that would be useful for the play decisions in the hand.

Try harder next time.

Now on to the rest of this thread.

citanul

[pokerlaw]

I would check the flop. aces stink for QQ. If you are going to continuation bet, scale it down to 160 or so, though 200 isnt that bad of an amount.

One he calls, check the turn. I know you have 4 to a flush, but your odds of getting the next spade are quite low, further, i doubt villain will fold now, so check and try to see if you make it cheaply. once you hit it, then you bet...

Think about it, 120 starting bet and 200 on the flop. by betting 200 on the turn, you are down below t1000 with only an 18% chance of hitting a flush. not good times...

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
No continuation bet? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be what he suggested. Are you having a reading problem, or just asking for more justification. In truth here, I think that I have to side with asking for more justification. As much as I like Unarmed, I don't like totally non-thought showing replies. So yeah, while check the flop might be great advice, it doesn't help the OP know why to do it, and analyze future situations.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I fired again at the turn because I picked up a four-flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

As pointed out by others, if you're going to semi bluff here, you picked a really crappy bet size without strong reasons about your opponent, though you didn't share any with us, so I'm assuming they didn't exist.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting this flop doesn't make any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]I disagree. It's the rest of the hand I was worried about. I almost never raise then check a flop. You lose pots right there that a continuation bet would have won.

[/ QUOTE ]

As Nick pointed out, perhaps you should consider starting then. (Also Unarmed.) If it was the "rest of the hand" you were "worried about" well, it shows you have even more to learn than you thought you did. That's great, learning is fun! You should be a) excited(!) and b) try to be more respectful to people trying to help you.

Your logic about 'losing pots you would have won' should be combined with some logic about how often you're beat here and you're just spewing chips.

I understand you luckboxed into the 2nd nuts and all, but that's hardly the expected outcome of this hand.

citanul

[lehighguy]

I would take free card on the turn, guy ain't laying down his aces. Everything else is fine.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
But the converter doesn't say I had three opponents... And I didn't. I had one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it did. Douchebag. When someone says "the converter says you had 3 opponents" and then makes the pot size incorrect, amongst other things, perhaps you should go and look at your post and see if it did say you had 3 opponents, before just hurrying off and making your next defensive stupid post. We get that you actually had 1 opponent, but that's not what the post says in the spot where it says "4 players."

Looking at the hand more now, I can see that the preflop, to the flop, pot size is all messed up as well, making these bet sizes make sense is a little harder now.

citanul

[gman420]

This is a situation that comes up in T.J.'s book "Championship hold 'em hands". He would suggest dumping the hand, since your opponent called a 6xbb raise before the flop and therefore is likely to have you beat. I always find his advice feels too conservative, but here I think I agree. It is early in the tournament, and you are betting a flop with an overcard and a flush draw on it. Making bets like you did drastically cuts down your stack when you likely have the worst hand (this assumes the person you are playing with is not an idiot). I think there is no reason to do this. I think check/fold is the right play here, especially since it is so early.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Win the pot, silly. Or find out where I am in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh. This is very opponent dependent stuff. Like I said, you didn't give us any info at all, so yeah, how should we know?

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, when I make a continuatin bet, I missed and don't know where I am. Sometimes I might get villain to lay down the best hand like if the flop comes up AKx against my Queens and villain has a King.

Do you know what a "continuation bet" is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, see, that's the goal of sending out the likely bluff bet on the flop, to get a better hand to fold and a worse hand to call and to have pixies fly in the window and wipe your ass for you too. But again, only certain types of players are going to do each of these things.

While continuation bet isn't in the forum definitions list, I think that Unarmed, who has given you no sass and has only tried to be helpful to you, you "I read Harrington on Hold'em, fear me" supercillious [censored].

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you know what a "continuation bet" is?

[/ QUOTE ]

And with that, I am finished debating post flop play on this forum. It's a complete and utter waste of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like sending out bluff bets on the Axx flop with QQ, you just have to learn to pick your spots.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Avoidance of the question noted.

[/ QUOTE ]

go hang yourself.

citanul

[adanthar]

Yeah, I know. Luckboxing should usually result in rivered quads.

BTW, if, for example, you were playing someone like me, you would be down lots and lots of chips over time continuation betting your way to going broke and would be *very* well advised to check the flop. A lot.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t1710)
SB (t1490)
Hero (t1500)
UTG (t2140)
UTG+1 (t1500)
UTG+2 (t1460)
MP1 (t1470)
MP2 (t1370)
MP3 (t1380)
CO (t980)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls t20, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t120</font>, MP1 calls t100, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (t300) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, MP1 calls t200.

Turn: (t700) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, MP1 calls t200.

River: (t1100) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, MP1 calls t200.

Final Pot: t1500

[/ QUOTE ]

Work from this one now.

citanul

[jcm4ccc]

I've completely changed my post because the pot size was changed.

I'm surprised that the consensus seems to be to give this up on the flop. You have only one opponent. A good sized bet on the flop would make the weak aces and flush draws fold. Is the standard line to fold queens (and kings and jacks) when an Ace hits the flop, if you have somebody heads up?

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I know. Luckboxing should usually result in rivered quads.

BTW, if, for example, you were playing someone like me, you would be down lots and lots of chips over time continuation betting your way to going broke and would be *very* well advised to check the flop. A lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

As a much more interesting topic of conversation, adanthar, and one that perhaps the OP would learn, say, something, from, perhaps you could share with the room:

Why would continuation betting result in going broke over time against adanthar?

Perhaps you'd also like to point out why it goes broke against bad "play any ace" type players (or any other old kind of bad players you want, most of which include playing too many ace hands for a raise).

yeah, that should be a good enough question to show the error of douchenuts' ways.

citanul

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm about to make a bunch of replies in this thread, because it has angered me, ok?

[/ QUOTE ]Big deal. I've read your posts. You get angry when the wind changes. Color me unsurprised.[ QUOTE ]
Your raise size preflop was too small, for starters.

[/ QUOTE ]6BB is small? My standard at that level is slightly more than half that. I put more in because of all the limpers. It seemed to work as I limited it to one caller. What do you suggest?[ QUOTE ]
Your bet on the flop, if the pot was heads up, which I'm assuming it was, should be a "sometimes" play, and opponent/calibre of opponents dependent.

[/ QUOTE ]Agreed it's a "sometimes" play. However the incredulity of another poster here without explanation was surprising. I felt it best after a relatively "big" (your objection notwithstanding) preflop raise.[ QUOTE ]
Your turn bet is bad. There's absolutely no way you can argue it isn't. What's the logic there, "I think I had about 1/4 chance to improve to a flush (which you didn't), so I bet 1/4 of the pot"? If you're going to semibluff, semibluff.

[/ QUOTE ]I should have checked or bet more, I agree. I should have bet around $600 or so. Or check-fold.[ QUOTE ]
I guess you fancy that small river bet some kind of "callable river value bet" meh, it's possible. It's just unlikely it was close to the best size for that bet.

[/ QUOTE ]It was part value bet and part "what if he has K/images/graemlins/spade.gif?" bet.[ QUOTE ]
You didn't give us any reads or buyin information that would be useful for the play decisions in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]None to give; it was early in a SNG. It was an $11 if that helps.[ QUOTE ]
Try harder next time.

[/ QUOTE ]Okay. Good luck with those anger management classes...

[zambonidrivr]

Bet the flop! 2/3-pot sized. check, turn, check river. move to push/fold routine. start new sng

[adanthar]

LOL. OK, fine, I'll actually post something constructive. Pfft.

Any ace:
-Guys that play any ace will fold it when one hits 0% of the time to any bet:
-Often enough, they're also passive and will never actually bet (enough with) their ace if checked to;
-This board won't have hit almost anything else they have.
-So, sometimes you can bet and sometimes you can check, but keep in mind that very few loose passives PF turn LAG after the flop and bet you off an Axx board with 94o. Gigabet can do that, but it's maybe 2% of the rest of the LAG population and they go broke quick.

Continuation betting against adanthar on an Axx board:
-If I give you action on it, I have you beat, most likely with a set or maybe an AK I missed a limp/reraise with against a maniac or something. Of course, I'll just call your flop bet, and then see the flush get closer and raise the turn. I may give you odds to see it or even think you can reraise/push, but that'll be because I have the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif or you actually only have 7 spade outs.
-If you check, I generally won't bet without a hand cause that just looks weird. Sometimes I will, and you can call it cause hey, you have a backdoor flush draw and can still river quads, but most of the time, if I have a middle pair or something you get to a showdown much cheaper by checking.

[citanul]

About to be done with this thread:

6bb is well, not so small, but before I get to that, I'd like to nitpick: you raised 5bb. you were in the bb, and you had already put in 20 chips, as did the other players. You made it 100 chips to go, with fairly deep stacks, with several opponents who are known for calling smallish (and biggish) raises preflop too much, with you going to have ot play the hand out of position the whole way. I'd probably go with closer to 175 than 100. It is good at least that you realize you should raise more because of the limpers, though I really don't care or understand why you compared it to your "standard" raise.

The flop bet size, for when you make the bet, is probably ok, considering what the pot size actually was.

600 is a number I would never ever bet on the turn.

This ridiculous searching for the Ks here bet is well, ridiculous. You should be ashamed.

"it was early in an 11" is well, way way way more information than you deemed it necessary to put in your original post, so yeah, that's useful information.

Like I said, try harder next time.

BTW, this is my anger therapy, I berate idiots, it calms me down.

citanul

[citanul]

there you go. thanks adanthar. this is pretty concise reasoning for how to play this hand against a) a bad player and b) a good player.

Hope the clown who posted this thread will like it.

citanul

[gman420]

correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems like a situation where you stand to lose a lot or gain a little. There are no reads on your opponent, so i'm assuming he is a good player (although if the tournament is a 5 dollar buy-in this might not be the case). I don't see anyone calling this raise with Ax, so i doubt you are gonna be scaring off a weak ace. This call suggests to me something like AQ, AJ, AT, maybe AK for some players, KQ, a pair JJ or lower. The pairs are going to fold to your bet on the flop (maybe no JJ, but I would fold JJ if I was bet into in this situation), but they were way behind so you didnt gain anything by betting. The aces are sticking with you the whole way, and my guess is that KQ is out of there also. I can see why betting the flop isn't a bad idea, because if I called a raise preflop and was checked to when an ace fell, I may take a stab at the pot depending on how I felt about my opponent (if he would check an ace). But once you get called you should shut down. You also could have bet just half the pot here and saved some chips, though online a bigger bet is sometimes neccessary, so 200 prob is fine. I just think it's too early in the tournament to be taking a stand with this hand. Wait for a better situation.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
There are no reads on your opponent, so i'm assuming he is a good player (although if the tournament is a 5 dollar buy-in this might not be the case).

[/ QUOTE ]I don't assume they're good because in most cases they are not, not at this level at UB. Even this "clown" makes a profit at this game.

The player in question had AJ devoid of spades, BTW. He was either a calling station or he was a decent player who realized that he might be outkicked (although if he's decent why does he call a large raise preflop with AJ... okay, I'll stick with the "calling station" designation for the time being).

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
You made it 100 chips to go, with fairly deep stacks, with several opponents who are known for calling smallish (and biggish) raises preflop too much, with you going to have ot play the hand out of position the whole way. I'd probably go with closer to 175 than 100. It is good at least that you realize you should raise more because of the limpers, though I really don't care or understand why you compared it to your "standard" raise.

[/ QUOTE ]The wager was 120 which was 6BB regardless of your semantics. I happened to be obligated for the first 20 of it, it was still a bet of 6BB.

And since my bet managed to a) limit the field to one player and b) didn't leave me with less chips if someone who liked to limp-reraise big with a big hand decided to push or something I would have to say it was appropriate in size all the way around. If someone did the limp-push thing I would have folded and hated it, but there you go - it's early.[ QUOTE ]
600 is a number I would never ever bet on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]Then what is? And why?[ QUOTE ]
This ridiculous searching for the Ks here bet is well, ridiculous. You should be ashamed.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not, really. It's the only card that beats me. Maybe he was slow-playing the nuts. It was mostly a value-bet however. Maybe a bit small for it but you have to consider that it is COMMON at this game/level for people to throw out a minimum bet on the turn or river regardless of pot size. I don't know why that is but I had to adjust my play because of it.[ QUOTE ]
"it was early in an 11" is well, way way way more information than you deemed it necessary to put in your original post, so yeah, that's useful information.

[/ QUOTE ]Well, I said it was "early" right in the subject. As for the level, sorry, but I have posted here quite a bit in the past month about how I play 11s at UB. I assume that you're not a member of my fan club since you didn't note this. /images/graemlins/smile.gif[ QUOTE ]
BTW, this is my anger therapy, I berate idiots, it calms me down.

[/ QUOTE ]Hopw you feel better. Maalox is useful for that ulcer.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
why does he call a large raise preflop with AJ... okay, I'll stick with the "calling station" designation for the time being).

[/ QUOTE ]

cuz he looked across the table and went "that guy over there looks like he'd throw a big stinking pile of chips at me if i hit an ace."

citanul

ps: the point is that as badly as he played it, you played it well, worse.

[Nick B.]

Why even post this hand? You think you played it right and insist on telling people who think you butchered it that they are wrong. The flop bet is fine, the turn bet is retarded. Did you even put your opponent on a hand? I think a check/call on the turn is what I would do.

[NYCNative]

I disagree. I didn't play it great, but if he raises at any point I fold and I don't hit the flush. I should have check-folded or maybe check-called the turn. Then I saw I made the flush but I was scared of the K/images/graemlins/spade.gif so I made a smallish bet. Turns out it was two pairs for him.

If different cards fall or if he raises at any point I fold. And he wasn't scared when the third spade hit even though he was spadeless. No, sorry.

I'll take a beating for the turn bet (you still haven't told me how much is acceptable or why, other than $200 and $600 were bad). But I am okay with my pre-flop raise and my flop continuation bet. I am only a little sad with the river bet because I could have got more out of him and if I was reraised, well, I was kind of comitted anyway, so may as well bet more there, but that wasn't a huge sin.

The turn was my biggest mistake. Villain made mistakes at every level: He called a big raise preflop with a notoriously troublesome hand... Maybe the call on the flop was okay but he should have raised; he would have and folded if played back to with a possible higher Ace... The turn call was bad - either fold or raisde me at this point... the call on the river was okay. He hit two pairs and that's tough to lay down, especially against a donk like me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
You think you played it right and insist on telling people who think you butchered it that they are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]Untrue. I think I played it right preflop and after the flop. I was shocked at why a "continuation bet" was dmismissed out of hand so I commented on that. I was not shocked people didn't like my turn and even river play because that was why I posted it - I knew mistakes were made there.

[jon_1van]

The only thing I have to add to this discussion is ::

If you raise a bit more preflop you can be alot more sure that you are beat given this flop. I do think that the raise was big enough to "thin the field". But it might not be big enough to force out weakish Aces in LP (with respect to your raise)

So if you put another 50 in preflop you can narrow your opponents hand range more...and that is generally pretty useful.

[Kristian]

I think people (2) are being unreasonably hard on OP'er.

Peace.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
Continuation betting against adanthar on an Axx board:
-If I give you action on it, I have you beat, most likely with a set or maybe an AK I missed a limp/reraise with against a maniac or something.

[/ QUOTE ]You also wouldn't call that PF raise with AJ. If you smooth-call my continuation bet, I probably don't put any mor emoney in. If you (or even a known donk) raises it, I'm gone.

Or maybe my "continuation bet" is a trap bet and I've made my hand... I come out firing with a reraise push or call and push the turn. Or come out firing after the turn if you just call.

The beauty of a continuation bet is it's also a trapping bet as a good player like yourself would know and a bad player wouldn't. Even a good player has trouble telling the difference as I see all the time on TV and in here.

[NYCNative]

Oh, and NOW I see how the converter messed up. i changed it before posting to the three folds afterwards and didn't notice the "4 people" there throughout. My bad.

For the record, I don't make a continuation bet with three other callers with overs. I think that the person so offended didn't see that. He is welcome to come back and explain that this theory is correct or explain why he checks that flop as a rule.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
If you smooth-call my continuation bet, I probably don't put any mor emoney in.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just did.

[ QUOTE ]
Or maybe my "continuation bet" is a trap bet and I've made my hand... I come out firing with a reraise push or call and push the turn. Or come out firing after the turn if you just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just call there with a made hand, a draw, and the occasional 'bluff the turn' hand 100% of the time. Good luck putting me on a hand and good luck betting into me again on the turn (if a picked up flush draw with QQ is in your range, you are in deep trouble).

In fact I think the only hands I would ever raise on that type of flop are something like 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and the occasional set for a changeup. Other people raise everything I would normally call, which may be worse for you given your typical raising range.

I am not saying you shouldn't ever continuation bet. HU, you *usually* should. But it should not be automatic.

[Unarmed]

Here:

If someone calls off 120 with a weak ace (or whatever it was) and hits their ace, I really doubt they're folding. (put another way, if they're stupid PF they won't all of a sudden grow a brain on the flop) That said, you're not folding out any better hands by making this bet, but you will probably fold out low-mid PP by doing so. I would rather check the flop, and if bet into, evaluate what to do (call or fold) based on my read of the opponent and his bet size. Most opponents won't bluff here without an ace because they'll be afraid I'm slowplaying it. (if they would bluff an ace here it will be some stupidly sized bet so I'm happy to give them the opportunity to do so) If they have a low-mid PP they definitely won't because they're just trying to get to a showdown as cheaply as possible. If it goes check/check I would lead the turn as my flop check on the two flush board may get 88 to call thinking that I whiffed with KJ or something.

So to summarize:

If Villain has an ace, checking is better for obvious reasons.
If Villain has a mid-low PP, checking is the only way you can extract additional value.

Actually, here's an easier example:

You have KK and raise PF UTG, Button is the only caller.
Flop comes A72 rainbow. Leading this flop is 100% incorrect. If you can see why, then you can see why leading with QQ in your hand is generally incorrect as well.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
You just did.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. And I suspected that was where I misplayed this (which prompted my post) and I admitted up there that it was wrong.

See, I had no intention of betting again unless a Queen popped up. Then I saw a spade and my head said, "You can STILL push him off this one and you have extra outs." However, my head also said, "Hey! Don't do it! You're behind in the hand!"

A case can be made there for putting in a bigger semi-bluff bet (semi now that I picked up the flush draw) thtat is more likely to work (because villain could fold thinking I made my flush) or checking and then deciding if I would fold or call if I didn't get a free card based on the bet size.

My brain snapped, unsure of which course to take, so I went and hit the compromise, which while useful in politics and cdeciding on where you want to go to dinner with your significant other is not very smart in poker. I did something in the middle, made a weak stab. Blah. There was my mistake. And by posting it I learned from it.[ QUOTE ]
I just call there with a made hand, a draw, and the occasional 'bluff the turn' hand 100% of the time. Good luck putting me on a hand and good luck betting into me again on the turn (if a picked up flush draw with QQ is in your range, you are in deep trouble).

[/ QUOTE ]Well, I'm trying to put ME in your shoes not villain. We all know you're smarter than villain (though it would be interesting to hear how you'd play this hand if you were... I suspect you would have folded pre-flop.)

The fact is that in the future I probably check the turn and see what happens. If you're villain you probably make a big enough bet that I fold. If you're villain you go over the top with my pussy bet, probably, and I fold there, but next time I won't make the pussy bet.[ QUOTE ]
I am not saying you shouldn't ever continuation bet. HU, you *usually* should. But it should not be automatic.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, I know that. Sometimes people scared of being check-raised will give a free card too so I will check sometimes. More often than not HU I will take a stab however especially when there's only one scare card.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
If someone calls off 120 with a weak ace (or whatever it was) and hits their ace, I really doubt they're folding. (put another way, if they're stupid PF they won't all of a sudden grow a brain on the flop) That said, you're not folding out any better hands by making this bet, but you will probably fold out low-mid PP by doing so. I would rather check the flop, and if bet into, evaluate what to do (call or fold) based on my read of the opponent and his bet size.

[/ QUOTE ]This is useful advice *if* he has the Ace. If he stayed in with Jacks, my bet makes him go away probably. If he stupidly stayed in with KQ he does away. Even if he has Kings and has me dominated, he goes away. The bet after a raise allows you to win pots you're behind in. I have won many a slick-that-missed bet this way. Many, many times.

Now, Queens ain't slick. They are unlikely to improve. I realize that. But they can still miss and checking after a raise is just so damn passive it makes me vomit into my mouth a little bit. Not to say I'll never do it, but I need a good reason and in this game with no reads, I lack such a reason.[ QUOTE ]
If Villain has an ace, checking is better for obvious reasons.
If Villain has a mid-low PP, checking is the only way you can extract additional value.

[/ QUOTE ]It also makes me succeptible to him putting in a 3/4 bet that could mean strength or weakness; then what? I'd rather be the aggressor and take down a pot I have no right to or get out when I get info that it ain't gonna happen.[ QUOTE ]
You have KK and raise PF UTG, Button is the only caller.
Flop comes A72 rainbow. Leading this flop is 100% incorrect. If you can see why, then you can see why leading with QQ in your hand is generally incorrect as well.

[/ QUOTE ]I guess I'm dense but I don't know why. I don't know he's got an ace here and checking essentially gives up the pot if he doesn't have the Ace. You must feel it's a 100% guarantee that he has the Ace. I think it might be probable but uncertain, whereas if I check after raising, villain will be able to bet me out of the pot no matter what he has. Why give up the initiative? I thought this game was about aggression? Not blind aggression, but I don't think a continuation bet is blind.

Again, I don't always do a continuation bet, but I think it's a better idea to do it than not in most cases. I appreciate that you feel differently but the pros outweigh the cons in my opinion.

[adanthar]

[quoteI guess I'm dense but I don't know why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you would, or should, also check or underbet an ace there.

[NYCNative]

Okay I can dig that. Make it look like I am slow-playing it, coming in for a big raise if villain bets. But the underbet is the same amount as a continuation bet though isn't it - about 1/2-3/3 of the pot?

I guess the problem is that I don't often check this when I have the Ace. Once in a while against a really aggressive stealing type I will, but usually I am betting out when I make my hand on the flop. I've been burned by slow-playing too much. Remind me to tell you the time I checked with a flop of AKQ with big slick and the 10 that came next gave villain a set of tens (and the river gave him quads).

I realize that is somewhat results-oriented, but I have numerous slow-playing-leads-to-being-outdrawn moments.

Also if I am always betting into a pot I raised after the flop it is hard to tell if I hit or missed... A smaller concern since SNGs don't attract the same people, but still important for when I'm in hand #120 of the game and in other games I play in.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You just did.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. And I suspected that was where I misplayed this (which prompted my post) and I admitted up there that it was wrong.

See, I had no intention of betting again unless a Queen popped up. Then I saw a spade and my head said, "You can STILL push him off this one and you have extra outs." However, my head also said, "Hey! Don't do it! You're behind in the hand!"

A case can be made there for putting in a bigger semi-bluff bet (semi now that I picked up the flush draw) thtat is more likely to work (because villain could fold thinking I made my flush) or checking and then deciding if I would fold or call if I didn't get a free card based on the bet size.

My brain snapped, unsure of which course to take, so I went and hit the compromise, which while useful in politics and cdeciding on where you want to go to dinner with your significant other is not very smart in poker. I did something in the middle, made a weak stab. Blah. There was my mistake. And by posting it I learned from it.[ QUOTE ]
I just call there with a made hand, a draw, and the occasional 'bluff the turn' hand 100% of the time. Good luck putting me on a hand and good luck betting into me again on the turn (if a picked up flush draw with QQ is in your range, you are in deep trouble).

[/ QUOTE ]Well, I'm trying to put ME in your shoes not villain. We all know you're smarter than villain (though it would be interesting to hear how you'd play this hand if you were... I suspect you would have folded pre-flop.)

The fact is that in the future I probably check the turn and see what happens. If you're villain you probably make a big enough bet that I fold. If you're villain you go over the top with my pussy bet, probably, and I fold there, but next time I won't make the pussy bet.[ QUOTE ]
I am not saying you shouldn't ever continuation bet. HU, you *usually* should. But it should not be automatic.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, I know that. Sometimes people scared of being check-raised will give a free card too so I will check sometimes. More often than not HU I will take a stab however especially when there's only one scare card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know what a semi-bluff is? It is when you are betting to get a better hand to fold. On this board, your bet is only going to get a hand that is drawing dead to fold. You will never ever get a better hand to fold. Basically your turn bet is spewing chips, it could have cost you the pot too if your opponent would have raised. Good work.

[Matt Walker]

[ QUOTE ]
Continuation betting against adanthar on an Axx board:
-If I give you action on it, I have you beat, most likely with a set or maybe an AK I missed a limp/reraise with against a maniac or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adanthar, if you limp then call a raise from the BB preflop, arent you most likely holding a mid-high pocket pair or a good ace. Because more than 1/2 of these handsmissed on this board wouldn't a continuation bet show immediate profit? Is your bluff call percentage that high? I'd be a lot more concerned about betting into the any ace guy here.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know what a semi-bluff is? It is when you are betting to get a better hand to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]Not exactly. A semi-bluff is:[ QUOTE ]
To make a bet in hopes that no one calls it. But, should other players call the hand, the hand can still improve to be the best hand at the table.

Poker Glossary (http://www.online-poker-rules.net/glossary-S-Z.html)

[/ QUOTE ]So it seems to me that this is precisely a semi-bluff. I can improve to the flush, yet I also want him to fold. How do you think that a turn bet is not a semi-bluff?[ QUOTE ]
On this board, your bet is only going to get a hand that is drawing dead to fold. You will never ever get a better hand to fold. Basically your turn bet is spewing chips, it could have cost you the pot too if your opponent would have raised. Good work.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, thanks for poiting out again what I realized before, that I played this hand badly on the turn. However, I still maintain that a legitimate semi-bluff at the turn can get someone to fold their Ace or maybe even a set because I can represent making the flush. Not with the pussy bet I made, mind you.

That doesn't mean I should always do this. Most of the time - as I admitted above - I should check-fold or check-call. But I don't think taking a legitimate stab at the pot with the three spades up there is a bad thing as a rule. Not what you'd do 100% of the time or even 40% of the time, but not an abomination.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
Adanthar, if you limp then call a raise from the BB preflop, arent you most likely holding a mid-high pocket pair or a good ace.

[/ QUOTE ]That's a good point. What do people limp-raise with? It's not usually strong aces, is it? I don't limp with AK and rarely with AQ. I imagine most people limp-call with small to medium PPs. Another reason I think a continuation bet is not inappropriate.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you think that a turn bet is not a semi-bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

BECAUSE HE WILL NEVER FOLD A BETTER HAND.

[NYCNative]

The fact that he's possibly/probably a donk who will never fold doesn't remove the fact that it's a semi-bluff, just that it's destined to fail /images/graemlins/smile.gif You have to recall though that I had no reads as it was early in a SNG so I had no idea what he'd do or not do.

Against a good player do you feel that a legitimate bet on that flop is a good move though? Yes or no?

[adanthar]

A continuation bet doesn't show immediate profit against me because most of the hands that would fold don't bet themselves. If I have 88 and you check, I generally won't bet (there are exceptions but not if I don't have a read.) Therefore, your bet folds my two outers but checking doesn't cost you the pot.

Also, giving a free card on an AKQ board is a lot dumber than giving one on an A72 board and it's very disturbing that you can't see the difference right away.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
A continuation bet doesn't show immediate profit against me because most of the hands that would fold don't bet themselves. If I have 88 and you check, I generally won't bet (there are exceptions but not if I don't have a read.) Therefore, your bet folds my two outers but checking doesn't cost you the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]Three observations:

1) You never take stabs when you sense weakness? That seems like lost opportunities. One cannot live on such things but the nice thing about stabbing at a pot against someone you don't know is they don't know you either.

Mind you I can see taking the free cards if you have a draw but a two-outer is not much of one.

2) I want you to fold your two-outer because a) you might be ahead of me right now (your 8s against my slick with a flop of QJ7) and I don't want you to know it and b) I don't want you to hit that two-outer unless you are willing to pay for it. Either way a bet does what is designed, makes you define your hand in some way.

Immediate profitability is nice and all but the best way to profit as a rule is to get information and a continuation bet will provide that.

3) Not everyone plays like you.[ QUOTE ]
Also, giving a free card on an AKQ board is a lot dumber than giving one on an A72 board and it's very disturbing that you can't see the difference right away.

[/ QUOTE ]You didn't direct that to me but I can see the difference on a free card on a coordinated board verses an uncoordinated one. But I still don't think that a bet on the uncoordinated board is necessarily bad as a result.

[Matt Walker]

Thanks for clearing that up, makes sense now. Don't know why I didn't see it before.

[Bigwig]

I'm curious, here, because I will usually check Q's on this flop, as well. And I've avoided posting such hands, because I thought the super aggressive 1 table forum would give me crap for it. I see in this thread that several excellent players would often check it, too. I'm glad.

My question is: If the flop is K high, is this a situation for an auto-continuation bet?

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]

So to summarize:

If Villain has a mid-low PP, checking is the only way you can extract additional value.


[/ QUOTE ]

My problem: I check the flop, villain checks behind.
I check the turn with the added flush draw, now villain might makes a huge bluff (maybe all-in) or "value bet" with JJ as is likely at these limits, sensing weakness.

Do I assume he has me beat with a weak Ace, or do I call him, believing he might have a smaller pocket pair. If I have him pegged as a bluffer I'd probably call him, but more often than not, I'll be folding this on the turn and not liking it.

My point is that by checking, I show weakness and players love to believe that they can push me out of the pot with an oversized bet, which I fold to often.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
I've avoided posting such hands, because I thought the super aggressive 1 table forum would give me crap for it.

[/ QUOTE ]Please direct me to the "super aggressive 1 table forum." This one is the "pocket jacks? Get them away from me" forum. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've avoided posting such hands, because I thought the super aggressive 1 table forum would give me crap for it.

[/ QUOTE ]Please direct me to the "super aggressive 1 table forum." This one is the "pocket jacks? Get them away from me" forum. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That's preflop. Postflop I see very little checking going on around here.

[Unarmed]

If I check the flop and check the turn I've committed myself to playing that hand for value, and I will generally check/call reasonable bets to the river.

[REL18]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop! 2/3-pot sized. check, turn, check river. move to push/fold routine. start new sng

[/ QUOTE ]


Im surprised that more people are not saying this! This is what i would do

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So to summarize:

If Villain has a mid-low PP, checking is the only way you can extract additional value.


[/ QUOTE ]

My problem: I check the flop, villain checks behind.
I check the turn with the added flush draw, now villain might makes a huge bluff (maybe all-in) or "value bet" with JJ as is likely at these limits, sensing weakness.

Do I assume he has me beat with a weak Ace, or do I call him, believing he might have a smaller pocket pair. If I have him pegged as a bluffer I'd probably call him, but more often than not, I'll be folding this on the turn and not liking it.

My point is that by checking, I show weakness and players love to believe that they can push me out of the pot with an oversized bet, which I fold to often.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't check the turn if he checks behind, you bet. Now that you're on the turn there's a much better chance that you have the best hand and you will often get called by pockets, especially somthing like 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif that would have folded on the flop.

Also, IMO being afraid of getting bluff off of a pot by checking does not justify throwing chips at a pot. check calling a bet that is either a bluff or a made hand is better than betting into a pot and only getting called by a better hand (i'm still sometimes folding to a bet though).

[Jason Strasser]

Hey folks.

The flop in this hand, IMO, can go either way, but I generally will check this flop. Generally, on this type of flop your bet will only get better hands to fold, but the flip side is that (at least if the players are the least bit respectable) say your opponent has a low pair that did not set the flop. If your opponent will ONLY put more money in IF he hits his set, then there is value in getting him to fold the flop. So against passive opponents who really wont pay you off with anything that doesn't beat a pair of aces, it becomes correct to bet the flop. The problem is that there is a draw on board, which may lead to you being check-raised off the best hand which violates the fundamental theorem of poker. Heads up I'm more likely to bet than 3 handed, but it also has a lot to do with the opposition.

The turn in this hand is really terrible and there is really no defense, unlike the flop. You picked up a second nut draw, and your opponent likely has an ace. What range of hands is calling the flop bet? How would you feel if you are check raised? If your opponent cant fold an ace, which most players wont here, then please just check and get to showdown ASAP. On the turn, you want to see if you make a flush or a set by the river, and you want to get to showdown on the off chance you are ahead of something like JJs. You arent betting for value, and you arent betting to get a better hand to fold (you COULD be, but not with this size bet), so why are you betting?

The river seems exceptionally poor as well and highlights the fact that you have succeeded in building a huge pot out of position with a pretty bad hand.

-Jason

[Unarmed]

Thanks Jason. I think I speak for everyone in the forum when I say that we could really use all the post flop advice you're willing to give. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ryendal]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that there is a draw on board, which may lead to you being check-raised off the best hand which violates the fundamental theorem of poker

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I knew the fundamental theorem of poker which is something like " Make bets to lead your opponent to make mistakes ..." Sorry for my english ...

And I am unable to understand exactly what you mean here.
Do you mean you have to bet to chase away a draw ?
Eventually, coz of my poor english, when I read what you wrote here, I understand something like that
" You have to bet, else someone with a worse hand than yours will bet to chase away draws, chasing at the same time you ..."

Could you please to enlight me ?
tyvm

[microbet]

Continuation bets came up a bunch here. My thoughts on when it works. Opposing viewpoints welcomed.

You have AK. You raise PF. Get called. Flop is uncoordinated with no A or K. You bet 1/2 or 2/3 pot.

The pocket pair that called you preflop and isn't an overpair now folds. Other hands that missed, but could easily outdraw you, now fold. If TPcrappyKicker or a draw or something calls, you have a draw yourself and a good chance at a seeing some free cards.