Is this a good PVS?

[pergesu]

I made this play for the sole purpose of being able to make this post.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t645)
Hero (t960)
UTG (t730)
MP1 (t2115)
MP2 (t1765)
CO (t1075)
Button (t710)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t50, MP1 calls t50, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>

Hero pushes

[Blarg]

LOL, I love that. I wouldn't have the balls, or the beer supply.

[DasLeben]

76o? Man, I thought you were MOHing when I saw that. Unglaublich. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Phoenix1010]

I don't like it. I'd like 200 chips in the pot at the bare minimum, and I do not like making this potentially crippling play with a healthy stack. You've got 19 times the BB, despite the fact that pushing is just gonzo, the risk:reward ratio is not in favor of making any kind of raise with a trash hand. On top of that, you're facing a UTG limp, which you should always reckon differently than other positions. Depending on the buy-in, it's not a terrible play here, but I like to save it for better situations.

[pergesu]

Well I won the tourney, so it worked.

Maybe I have to do it every time now? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like it. I'd like 200 chips in the pot at the bare minimum, and I do not like making this potentially crippling play with a healthy stack. You've got 19 times the BB, despite the fact that pushing is just gonzo, the risk:reward ratio is not in favor of making any kind of raise with a trash hand. On top of that, you're facing a UTG limp, which you should always reckon differently than other positions. Depending on the buy-in, it's not a terrible play here, but I like to save it for better situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[Freudian]

I can count the times where someone called my massive overbet all-in in level 3 with one hand. I usually have a better hand though (TT, JJ and AQ, possibly 99 if I am feeling frisky). I think it is an excellent move with 2+ limpers as it practically is free chips.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
I can count the times where someone called my massive overbet all-in in level 3 with one hand. I usually have a better hand though (TT, JJ and AQ, possibly 99 if I am feeling frisky). I think it is an excellent move with 2+ limpers as it practically is free chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you need TT, JJ, or AQ if it works every time you've done it?

[zambonidrivr]

unless there is an early limper, i push this every time

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I won the tourney, so it worked.

Maybe I have to do it every time now? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've stumbled upon the point. Making this play did not drastically improve your chances of winning the tourney. I don't know why, but I feel like I should explain this play. These should be your chief considerations:

Reward: How many chips am I gaining from this move; not just absolute values, what fraction of my stack am I adding if I pull this play off successfully? This is what makes pushing with t650 and three limpers such a good play: you're increasing your stack by almost a third, and moving yourself from a near-drastic chip position to a rather comfortable position. There is a gigantic difference between going into level 4 with t600 and going into level 4 with t850, so making this play will account for a huge increase in your chances of winning, enough to offset the risk involved. On the other hand there is not as large a difference between t960 and t1135 at any level, and while this play will earn you some chips, you will not be drastically improving your chances of winning even when you're successful, at least not enough to cover the risk. This is why a play can be +CEV and not +$EV.

Risk: What am I going to lose when I am called, and how often is that going to happen? Well in your hand, you've only got UTG covered by a bit, and MP1 has you covered, so you're pretty much risking your tournament life. Now you've got to figure out how much you have to worry about either of them calling, because you're going to be way behind when they do. Here's a secret: the worst times to pull this move are when a medium to short stack limps under the gun, and when a large stack is the last limper. The First and last limpers are always the most worrisome. Why? Here's what you have to think about: there are two balancing factors that govern all of the limpers in a hand. The strength of the range of hands usually goes from strongest up front to weakest in the back because players are invited in with weaker hands by the pot sweetening limpers up front, while the calling standards up front have to be narrower because of the threat of overcalls from the limpers in back. So you have to worry about stronger hands up front, looser calling standards in back (as an aside, this is why it is often BETTER to push when there are more than two limpers, as the middle limpers are very unlikely to call because they are sandwhiched by these two factors, and they serve to strengthen both effects on the front and back guys, not to mention making the pot bigger). Well who is most likely to limp with the strongest hand? A medium to shortstacked UTG player. Who is most likely to have the widest calling standards? A big stack. It just so happens that you've picked one of the worst times to take your PVS for a spin.

So basically, you're taking a very big risk for moderate reward (I haven't even talked about table image and other factors). Mind you, the play is probably still +CEV here, but it's still not worth the risk. The PVS (I like this name) is a very powerful move, but don't get too crazy with it, and use it when it's appropriate. I see it becoming the next stop and go as far as misused fancy plays. Excuse me for this essay, I "invented" this play and felt that I should share my thoughts on it. Hope this helps.

-Phoenix

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can count the times where someone called my massive overbet all-in in level 3 with one hand. I usually have a better hand though (TT, JJ and AQ, possibly 99 if I am feeling frisky). I think it is an excellent move with 2+ limpers as it practically is free chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you need TT, JJ, or AQ if it works every time you've done it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say it worked every time. I don't think it would work as often if I started doing it all the time.

I probably should do it more often though.

[Unarmed]

Great post, I wish you hadn't made it /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Have you experimented with the move in level 4 at all at the 1000 chip games. The bubble tends to occur at level 5 and up here and I'm thinking of throwing down a couple BB pushes at level 4 as everyone seems to be in sit back and wait mode.

[Freudian]

I rarely get limpers calling a push in level 3 but often get it in level 4. Don't know if it is different with 1000 starting chips.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
Great post, I wish you hadn't made it /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Have you experimented with the move in level 4 at all at the 1000 chip games. The bubble tends to occur at level 5 and up here and I'm thinking of throwing down a couple BB pushes at level 4 as everyone seems to be in sit back and wait mode.

[/ QUOTE ]

I kinda wish I hadn't made it either /images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Just know that if anyone pushes their BB into me after I limp I'm calling with any two on general principle! I never limp on level 3 anyway.

I've never played a 1000 chip game, but when I've got a decent stack on level 4, if any healthy stacks open limp from anywhere but UTG or the button, I'm punishing them. Success rate is close to 90% (estimate), but be really careful with those UTG and button open limps.

-Phoenix

[The Yugoslavian]

You need to extract more chips than your used to on level 4 to beat the 1000 chip games solidly. Using the PVS at this stage is one way to do so (also finding spots to enter pots pre-flop vs. opponents you can play profitably against post flop).

You also need to play your blinds very well.

As for the OP hand, Phoenix explained it all way to clearly so I won't bother. The succinct way to put it is Lori 3:16 or whatever...do you need this pot? The PVS is a more crucial move when the chips won will really help you yet you still have enough of a stack to make the move work. For instance, when you have 500 instead of 900 chips it makes more sense (you can't absorb the level 4 blinds and still have much FE).

Yugoslav
Who considers a true PVS not to be out of the BB but either from LP or the SB.

[chopchoi]

what does PVS stand for?

[citanul]

phil van sexton (sexy?)

fwiw, i hate the original play.

citanul

[Phil Van Sexton]

If done for the purpose of making a post, then I like the play.

-$EV? Maybe, but there's more to life than money.

As I said in my original post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1997018&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1), I wouldn't make this move with an average stack like you have here, but if you are doing it for entertainment value, go for it.

Now that I play the 1000 chips games, I have less opportunities to make this play. In these games, I've started doing more of this on level 4.

If you have like 750 chips on level 4, it's tough to get a decent stack before level 5 starts. A blind steal only nets 150 and I want to get like 1100 before level 5. To do this, I'll need to steal 3 times (since I'll be posting at least once myself). This is a tall task.

However, if you have pick off 1 or 2 limpers at level 4 with a steal, now you are in much better shape.

I'm not confident enough in this play to suggest when the best time to do this is (ie with what cards and/or position).

So far, I don't think I'm being called all that more often in level 4 compared to level 3.

My impression is that my opponents see a PVS in level 3 as: "what is this clown pushing for? The bb is only 50, so he could've just raised normally with a good hand. He has nothing so I'll call with my 66 or QJ."

On level 4, only big stacks will limp for 100. When I push on level 4 after a limper, my impression is that they think: "He just pushed into my big stack, and he's not even the BB. He knows I could call him easily, so he must have something, I fold".

Again, this is just guesswork. I haven't mastered level 4 yet.

[The Yugoslavian]

Yes, in the 1000 chip games level 4 is like the new level 3, /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I think there also are opportunities on level 5 do PVS as depending on the texture of the table, a habitual limper will continue to do so (if he's gotten a hold of a nice stack, which habitual limpers have by level 5 or have busted) and sometimes encourage opporunistic players to follow (thinking they can out-play post flop).

Or perhaps I'm thinking into this all too much, /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Yugoslav

[Unarmed]

A level 5 PVS? /images/graemlins/shocked.gif
You're a maniac Yugo!

[citanul]

i shouldn't tell the world this probably since i'm playing on a public screen name on 1/2 my tables, but at the 50s, people are limping and folding a ton at 100/200, so i've been PVSing them all day.

citanul

[pergesu]

Yeah, this play was a late-night, end-of-session, "I'll do this just for kicks and see what reaction I get" kinda thing. I'm really glad I did it though, because Phoenix's response was very informative, and I got to follow a trail of threads linked to in Phil's posts.

How often would you guys do something like this? Just once in level 3, to give you a reasonable stack in level 4? Two or three times?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I can count the times where someone called my massive overbet all-in in level 3 with one hand. I usually have a better hand though (TT, JJ and AQ, possibly 99 if I am feeling frisky). I think it is an excellent move with 2+ limpers as it practically is free chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get called pulling crap like this all the time (usually I'm pushing something like AK, but sometimes a QTs type hand) and its almost always by a small/mid pocket-pair. For that reason, I don't like doing this with such small cards.