Why 10/20 is so good (LC)

[tongni]

Well, one of us is the reason why 10/20 6m is so good. When you're not running well, you're just not running well.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, CO checks.

Turn: (2 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, CO folds.

River: (7 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has 7h 6s (one pair, twos).
UTG has As 8s (two pair, aces and twos).
Outcome: UTG wins 9 BB. </font>

[TStoneMBD]

well, i think your play is awful in this hand to be honest.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
well, i think your play is awful in this hand to be honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

he played it waaaay better than UTG, heh

[tongni]

Well, I didn't say my play was good. I didn't really see any other way to play it, except folding. although it feels like my hand is too strong for that. Betting out on the turn will likely get me called by the loose UTG, who probably has some sort of overcards. But there's no way he can call two cold, right?

[EvanJC]

i think he played it fine

[skoal2k4]

what's "awful" about it? maybe he should c/r the river eh?

[mungpo]

I don't think his play is bad. However, I have no idea what UTG is doing.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I didn't say my play was good. I didn't really see any other way to play it, except folding. although it feels like my hand is too strong for that. Betting out on the turn will likely get me called by the loose UTG, who probably has some sort of overcards. But there's no way he can call two cold, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Even a loose player will often fold if he got nothing and pot is small and there are 2 players behind to act if u bet out. And how did u know CO was going to bet (and betting a hand that isnt worth to call all way with).

Also, there is a decent chance that the others got overcards + straight draw. A lose player - like UTG - will look at his hand and see 10 outs. 2 overcards and inside straightdraw. And if u have done raises like this before he probably also think there is a small chance his A high is good.

And this time the loose guy actually was right, about 2/3 of the deck was his.

I would much prefer a simple turnbet in this spot. If u are lucky u take it down, if not it was only 1BB and as much as 14 outs to hit river, making it a good, solid semibluff.

In my book this is a: "If noone bets flop and u got anything at all and turn isnt scary, then you should normally bet turn as a semibluff."

[henrikrh]

You are right, the hero and UTG play seen here is the reason 10/20 is so good, very fishy.

[stigmata]

I also just bet the turn.

In addition to what kiddo said, I think that sometimes bad players get tied to the pot once you pull a move on them. Kind of like they have to look you up once you check-raise them. Sometimes you get more fold equity when you just bet out.

Also, I usually give up on the river when called. Either villain has something or most of the draws he could have just completed.

[Silverback]

heros play is awful and no wonder so many $10/$20 players have such low win rates,

UTG player you all think played badly, however with 4 players in the hand how can he think he is ahead? Sure bet out semi bluff but in the overly aggressive $10/ $20 hes then put under pressure when raised, he has no hand yet anf facing more bets on further rounds.

As it happens he wins big bets by hero semi bluffing the CO,

This is example of passive players soaking up the overagression of other players.

I dont play $10/$20 but Ive looked at higher limits, and also seen this play in games at lower limits.

[beachbum]

[ QUOTE ]
In my book this is a: "If noone bets flop and u got anything at all and turn isnt scary, then you should normally bet turn as a semibluff."

[/ QUOTE ]
Not with 3 other players left in the hand and a total pot of 2 BB. For God's sake, check-fold.

[kiddo]

This makes no sense. Could you give me some arguments?

[joker122]

i'd just lead the turn. your fold equity is better than trying to CR and fold a "bluff" because A high and worse hands will call down here just for spite.

[beachbum]

For your semibluff to be effective, there has to be a good chance that all 3 players will fold. Because of the size of the pot, you're only getting 2:1 on them folding. There's a ton of cards that players will hold here that will give them incentive to call, even though they're not getting the odds to do it. These are any Ace, 2 overs, a club draw, a 3, a slowplayed deuce, a weakly played pocket pair, a 6 for a gutshot, etc. Maybe players holding unmade hands like draws and overs will call the turn and fold the river. Are you willing to fire UI on a river bluff? Now, overall you're getting 3:2.

Also, even if you get callers on the turn and hit your 8-outer on the river, you could lose to a boat or flush. It's just a terrible risk reward play, IMO.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
For your semibluff to be effective, there has to be a good chance that all 3 players will fold. Because of the size of the pot, you're only getting 2:1 on them folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are talking about a bluff, not a semibluff.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, even if you get callers on the turn and hit your 8-outer on the river, you could lose to a boat or flush. It's just a terrible risk reward play, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

We got openended straight and 2 overs in unraised pot and noone betting flop. How is this 8 outs?

If u play as weak as a checkfold on this turn you will get killed in any decently aggressive shorthanded game. In a normal 10/20 there will always be someone betting this turn as a pure bluff so u will often checkfold best hand.